Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Still lots of great discussion of the earlier books going on, and not to stifle that, but the schedule calls for us to move on, too.

Have we commented yet that the Greek gods were, in many cases, both humanoid creatures and the physical embodiment of natural forces? When Homer says

“When Dawn in her yellow robe rose from Ocean’s stream,
bringing her light to immortal gods and mortal men,”

he is speaking not just of the sun as a physical entity, but as the sun as the goddess Dawn.

We will see this concept again soon.

It seems by now pretty clear that for the Greeks, weeping was not considered unmanly (as it has been in Western thought for some time; did John Wayne ever cry?), but that as we have seen before and see here again, even the greatest warrior of the Greeks, and perhaps of the known world, weeps.

And his concern about the body of Patroclus is, to me, touching. We have heard of bodies being left to be devoured by birds and dogs, but this is the first I recall of concern that a body will be devoured by maggots. I don’t know enough about Greek culture, but others may, to know why Achilles hasn’t buried the body (at one point in the book, I recall their saying that bodies should be buried immediately), but is keeping it with him as he weeps over it. But mother once again knows best, and will preserve the body.

And we also find for the first time that there are members of the Greek forces who are not warriors, but who are the support troops. This may seem obvious, but it’s interesting that Homer sees fit to mention it; not many other war epics mention those who feed the troops, do they?

What think you of the joint apologies of Achilles and Agamemnon? Achilles seems to me sincere; it’s a legitimate expression of regret and casting off of his wrath. Agamemnon, on the other hand, still is defensive, still has to blame Zeus and the Furies. And what is the goddess Ate doing here? How is she to blame? It’s an interesting exposition of Ate’s history, and we can get into her if we want to, but why is Agamemnon going into it at this time? And why does he claim that “I could not shake the folly that Ate caused”?

In Achilles’s answer we get even further proof that he has totally abandoned the whole ethos of time and kleos. When Agamemnon offers to bring the gifts, Achilles says do what you want, I don’t care, just “let us think of war.”

It is Odysseus again (not my hero Nestor, but Odysseus will do) who counsels the still young Achilles to be not quite so hasty, but reminds him that an army travels on its stomach, and the troops need rest and food and drink. Also, he cleverly goes on, it’s necessary that the quarrel be openly and publicly put to rest, so let Agamemnon give you a banquet, and return the gifts, so all will see that things really are right between you.

Achilles is still hotblooded and ready, now that he has his new armor, to get out there and avenge Patrocles. He again declines the gifts, and wants the feast to wait until “fury ceases to overwhelm my chest.” And a few lines later [213] “I have no interest in anything else / besides the Trojans’ slaughter, blood and dying groans.”

(This is a very fast paced book; all that I have just summarized takes place in just 215 lines.)

As it turns out, Odysseus prevails, the gifts are returned, and the sacrifice and feast take place for most. But Achilles still has only one thing on his mind.

But meanwhile, we get two wonderfully touching scenes, almost of pathos. First in Briseis seeing Patroclus’s body and wailing over it, we get a glimpse of what she has gone through and how Patroclus consoled her in her grief. It shows once again the softer side of Patroclus that we don’t see in many of the Greeks, and in a way it echoes the scene of Andromache and Hector, showing us just a glimpse of the human figures beneath the shining armor. And then Achilles’s lament to Patroclus. It is hard to keep a tear from forming in the eye, isn’t it? Think what a skilled poet/singer could do with these back-to-back speeches of Briseis and Achilles. They are every bit as powerful as anything Shakespeare wrote.

Even Zeus is touched, and he sends Athena to fortify Achilles with nectar and ambrosia (which, note, is what Thetis used to preserve Patroclus’s body from harm).

So we see Achilles preparing for his aristeia, donning his armor, taking the heavy spear that only he can wield, harnessing his immortal horses, one of whom is given voice by Hera to remind Achilles of his impending death. Which Achilles knows all too well:

“Xanthus,
why do you prophesy my death? There is no need.
I know well enough I’m fated to die here,
far from my loving parents. No matter.
I will not stop till I have driven the Trojans
to the limit of what they can endure in war.”

I don’t know about you, but although nobody dies in this book, I find it the saddest and most touching book we have encountered so far.

I haven't seen Thetis out-and-out lie, 'though she has "committed the sin of ommission" in not telling Achilles exactly what Zeus's nod was going to cost.

When she said of Patroclus, "The will of the gods has crushed him once for all" (fagles 19.10) I wonder if she is telling the truth--that it was the gods--or if she put it that way to try to comfort Achilles. (you're not to blame. It was the gods,)

Agamemnon's part reminded me of the hot air of a politician or a person who wants attention "Look at meeeee! Look what I can do! I'm making up a story so that the real issue at hand isn't as important as my innocence because it's not my fault I'm a jerk, it's sombody else's fault". Sadly, I do think he's as sincere as he can get.

And who is this child that Achilles is talking about Patroclus picking up on the way home to take care of? Did I miss something in the previous books? Achilles has a son?

Juliette wrote: "Agamemnon's part reminded me of the hot air of a politician or a person who wants attention "Look at meeeee! Look what I can do! I'm making up a story so that the real issue at hand isn't as impo..."

:-). Since you mention politicians... Without denigrating the positive accomplishments of Richard Nixon, I thought of Nixon's "I am not a crook" speech. But your image is more apt. Agamemnon never denied what he did. And I'm with you on that sincerity issue!

Achille's son. Achilles has a son. Neoptolemus.

This much I can post without spoilers: Neoptolemus (also Neoptólemos or Pyrrhus; Greek Νεοπτόλεμος, "New War") was the son of the warrior Achilles and the princess Deidamia in Greek mythology. Achilles' mother foretold many years before Achilles' birth that there would be a great war. She saw that her only son was to die if he fought in the war. She sought a place for him to avoid fighting in the Trojan War, due to a prophecy of his death in the conflict. She disguised him as a woman in the court of Lycomedes, the King of Scyros. During that time, he had an affair with the princess, Deidamea, who then gave birth to Neoptolemus. Neoptolemus was originally called Pyrrhus, because the female version of that name, Pyrrha, had been taken by his father while disguised as a woman.

(Aside: Supposedly, knowing that they would need Achilles at Troy, Odysseaus tracked Achilles down to the island of Lesbos. I think it was Lesbos. Where Achilles was hidden. Dressed as a girl. And supposedly he could pass as a girl due to his INCREDIBLE good looks. Yes, Patrice, blond good looks. LOL. Anyway. Odysseus, clever man, thought of a way to "out" Achilles. He pretended to be a peddler of weapons and shields....Although what demand there would be for weapons on an all-girl island, I don't know. But Odysseus sees that this one "girl" is interested in the weapons. And he knows that must be Achiilles. Or, in some stories, he tosses something towards Achilles, and Achilles forgets he's in a dress and catches it like a boy.

I like the incongruity of Achilles being so attractive as a "girl" that no one can figure out which one is him. AND at Troy, he's the tallest, best-built warrior there.

I realize that from 17 to 27 ... or whatever... Achilles might have grown a LITTLE taller.... still... even at 17 I would have imagined that he would have had a somewhat manly build. Perhaps Odysseus said, "There's a handsome girl about 6 feet tall. Maybe that's Achilles."

Anyway.


Long version with variations: http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythol...

Shorter version with only the most well-known variation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoptolemus

Juliette wrote: And who is this child that Achilles is talking about Patroclus picking up on the way home to take care of? Did I miss something in the previous books? Achilles has a son?
"

Yes, he does, but presumably before he left for Troy, so the son would be at least 10 now. Achilles could hardly have left for Troy at less than 18 or so, which is old enough to have fathered a son.

Juliette wrote: "Agamemnon's part reminded me of the hot air of a politician or a person who wants attention "Look at meeeee! Look what I can do! I'm making up a story so that the real issue at hand isn't as impo..."

It seems typically grandiose of Agamemnon. He compares himself to Zeus being tricked by Ate, but it is quite obvious that he is merely skirting responsibility. I think we last heard about Ate in Phoenix's story in Book 9, where he tells Achilles the story of Meleager refusing to fight after Ate stirs up some sort of rift between Meleager and Meleager's mother. Meleager eventually relents and returns to the fight, but only after much damage has been done. This seems to parallel Achilles' situation.

But it is interesting that Agamemnon does not accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions. He blames the gods. It is precisely the opposite of what Achilles does.

Patrice wrote: "I've just started this book but I got a good laugh at how Achilles views Breisis. If there was any doubt about how they view women, this defined it. He tries to make up with Agamemnon by saying w..."

And isn't it interesting that Homer shows Briseis mourning over Patroklos? What about Achilles? Shouldn't there be some kind of reunion scene?

But Achilles is obviously inconsolable. He has no interest at this point in anything except battle. He no longer even cares about his hatred for Agamemnon... " bring on the gifts, if you want, or keep them yourselves, but let us think of war, and soon."

Thomas wrote: "And isn't it interesting that Homer shows Briseis mourning over Patroklos? What about Achilles? Shouldn't there be some kind of reunion scene?

.."

It was interesting. No embrace for Achilles. And Patroclus dead cannot fulfil his vow to make her "godlike Achilles' lawful, wedded wife"

If it mattered at all to Achilles, this would have been his opportunity to ask her if Agamemnon was telling the truth.

Speaking of which...

Agamemnon says, "If a word of what I say is falsely sworn,
may the gods deal out such blows to me, such agonies
as they deal out to the men who break sworn oaths
and take their names in vain!"

Did he swear falsely?
And did the gods hit him with Clytemnestra?

I notice that just as Achilles called the meeting in Book 1 to deal with the plague problem, here, too, it is Achilles that calls the meeting and brings up the subject.

"But brilliant Achilles strode along the surf,
crying his piercing cry and roused Achaean warriors...."

Achilles comes blazing forth; Agamemnon "came in last of all" wounded in his arm...which really, you wouldn't think, would affect how quickly he could walk.

Achilles opens by saying both of them had raged.

"Now, by god, I call a halt to all my anger--
it's wrong to keep on raging, heart inflamed forever" (Fagles 19.77)

Followed immediately by "I am very, very angry--Quickly, let's kill Trojans."

Or is it something other than anger that impels Achilles to focus on avenging Patroclus?

Agamemnon.

Juliette is right. That speech of Agamemnon's is something else.

A couple of things:

"He rose from his seat, not moving toward the center."

What a phrase to include, I thought.
Is Homer suggesting that Agamemnon is not willing to move? Not willing to meet Achilles halfway?

Also, I found it rich that Agamemnon was giving advice on courtesy and ettiquette. I had to laugh.

"...when a man stands up to speak, it's well to listen.
Not to interrupt him, the only courteous thing."

And then...Achilles interrupts him:
"But the swift runner Achilles broke in sharply--"

And then...Achilles interrupts him again:
"But the swift runner Achilles interjected"

Did that line at Fagles 19.322 give you pause?

Father Zeus...blinding frenzies.
"if not, I swear {so we know he's serious],
Atrides could never have roused
the fury in me, the rage that would not die,
or wrenched the girl away against me will--"

What exactly is Achilles saying here?
Is he saying that if he hadn't been blinded by anger that he wouldn't have let Agamemnon take the girl?

What a couple Achilles and Briseis would have made!

Him with his godlike anger.
Her, "like a goddess in her grief"

Oh, Patrice, I'm over here looking at this from a different position. I don't think Achilles has abandoned his anger or forgiven anyone. Least of all Agamemnon. But he's focused on something bigger than Agamemnon. Terrible as Agamemnon's words and actions were, Hector's action, killing Patroclus, was much worse. Therefore, he's focused on Hector. Brisies was his woman, and it was an affront to have her taken from him. Patroclus was more to Achilles than that. "I loved him as myself" or words like that. A terrible affront; an unbearable loss. "I no longer have any desire to live:" or words like that.

Thetis didn't advise him to forgive anyone. She adviced him to voluntarily "put aside" his anger AT AGAMEMNON.

"renounce your rage at the proud commander Agamemnon,
then arm for battle quickly, don your fighting power"
(Fagles 19.41)

And Achilles says he will beat his anger down. Because he has something more meaningful in his life that he wants to do and to continue to let his anger at Agamemnon rage would make it impossible for him to accomplish his goal: Kill Hector.

And...I don't see Achilles as giving self up. I see him as finding self. He's not fighting any more for Agamemnon's reasons. He's not fighting any more for Greek reasons---(although he will still be happy with the honor and glory that come his way, I think). He's fighting now for his own reasons. No character in the Iliad is more of an individual than Achilles. Not just because he was a man apart, although there's that. The other Greeks tend to fight in mass. Achilles fights alone. The other Greeks (with the exception of Thersites) try to maintain the social system in existence. It's safe. It's comfortable. It's what they've always done.

Achilles questions the gods! . No one else does this. Iris (Book 18) flies down and tells him "Up with you-- no more lying low... Yours, the shame will be / if your comrade's corpse oes down to the dead defiled!"

Achilles: "What god has sped you here to tell me this?"

Iris: "Hera."

And Achilles interrupts her!
"Achilles broke in quickly--
How can I go to war? The Trojans have my gear."


Somewhere I read that Achilles had been a man who was persuing an image his whole life. That's why he went to Troy. For the glory. To enhance his image, his glory, his time, right? He lived according to how other people would view him. That's what I like about Achilles at this point. He's done living based on what others think. "Done is done."

There was no "self" in the Iliad until Achilles found "himself." I like that from the psychological perspective. Freud, others, held that without a struggle there is no definition. Achilles has been struggle mightily these past weeks. His (possible) alter-ego (Patroclus) has been killed. If nothing else, I think you would agree that the "Achilles" heading out to fight Hector is not the same "Achilles" that let Agamemnon take Briseis.

Oh. The fire. I had wanted to write a piece up on that, but I'll never get to it.

Doubtless you've noticed the many, many, many images of fire in the Iliad. Hundreds, I would suppose.

I had wanted to write on that.

The Iliad opens with the funeral pyres. The Greeks burning the dead bodies of those who had died of the plague. (See background thread...maybe resource thread.)

If these poems were song in the evening or a feast there would have been fire. Either from the poem or from the fire in front on them the audience would have had images of flickering fires. The intensity of fire. How, with care, it can be controled and benefits man. How easily and how powerfully it can rage out of control. (Like brilliant Achilles.) The emotional resonance of funeral fires they themselves had witnessed. Probably for friends and family they themselves had cared about. So it would have tapped in their own real feelings. And, always in the back of their minds, the knowledge of the funeral pyre for Patroclus. Sadness for Patroclus. For Achilles. For Troy. For fleeting shortness they know will be their own lives, too, I imagine.

Patrice wrote: "On line 148 "Let us remember our joy in warcraft' jumped out at me. Joy in war? Sometimes Homer seems to be bemoaning the senseless suffering of war but in that phrase, I flashed on the joy men experience in watching a football game or a prize fight. "

This reminds me of the famous Robert E. Lee quotation: "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it."

Patrice wrote: "But I did not say that he gave up "self". He gave up self-defeating anger.

Self-defeating anger. Oh, that's very different. (Rosanne Rosanna Dana)

So many ways to read this!"

Oh...one way would be for me to read the words you wrote. :-( ... :)

Thanks, Patrice!

Thomas wrote: "He no longer even cares about his hatred for Agamemnon... " bring on the gifts, if you want, or keep them yourselves, but let us think of war, and soon." "

I agree that he doesn't care about his hatred for Agamemnon, but I didn't see that passage so much as relevant to his overcoming his hatred for Agamemnon; rather, I think it's more a matter of rejecting the whole concept of fighting as a means of acquiring booty.

He knows he is going to die soon, so the whole idea of war as a means of acquisition of goods and honor is meaningless to him. Johnson (Samuel) said that Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging. In his case, not hanging, but the same idea; his mind is focused on one thing, avenging Patroclus, and nothing else -- not eating, not sleeping, not booty -- matters.

Adelle wrote: "What a couple Achilles and Briseis would have made!

Him with his godlike anger.
Her, "like a goddess in her grief""

Although hers is a "bit" part in the drama, she does come across wonderfully, doesn't she? I have been reading the Iliad in part as though it were a play script (it works very well that way), and Briseis would be a wonderful part for any young actress to play. Such a range of emotions!

Patrice wrote: "On line 148 "Let us remember our joy in warcraft' jumped out at me. Joy in war? Sometimes Homer seems to be bemoaning the senseless suffering of war but in that phrase, I flashed on the joy men experience in watching a football game or a prize fight. "

It's not so much the joy in watching these as it is, as I mentioned earlier, my son's joy in actually playing football, hitting opposing players, pitting his strength and his wits (football is a much more intellectually demanding sport than most people realize) against theirs. And think of Patton -- there was certainly extraordinary joy in warfare!

Everyman wrote: "I agree that he doesn't care about his hatred for Agamemnon, but I didn't see that passage so much as relevant to his overcoming his hatred for Agamemnon; rather, I think it's more a matter of rejecting the whole concept of fighting as a means of acquiring booty. "

That's a good clarification. Achilles is fighting for something else now. I'm not sure whether he is even fighting for honor or kleos anymore, though this may be implicit in any fighting that Achilles does simply because he is Achilles.

But it still seems to me that his anger has a different impetus now. I think it's fairly common for soldiers to lose sight of the reason they are fighting when the enemy kills a friend. The war is no longer fought for abstract reasons of justice or honor -- the killing becomes personal, and there is an element of vengeance to it.

I am very, very angry--Quickly, let's kill Trojans.