The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm pretty curious to know which books you hate the most. For my part I have a strange hateful relationship with His Dark Materials. I know people are going to throw rocks at me for that hahaha, but I genuinely don't like them for the simple reason that the vision of religion is really hateful that are a bit too intense for my taste. I'm a christian guy and I agree that some religious people are way too intense and just don't understand anything about it, I also think that the catholic church is one of the most evil organization there is XD, but people who just see the hateful religious people I think are just being blind.

Although his dark materials is a very tremendous series ( I won't say otherwise, because let's face it, it's a very good piece of work), I didn't like some of the opinions that are being conveyed in it, I think some of them we're really offensive. Sorry for the fan of the series hahahhaha

A Canticle for Leibowitz for the reason that I was unpleasantly surprised that I read a SciFi book that came highly recommended, that expounded Christian crap about non-Christian values being responsible for the apocalypse.

I still have to read His Dark Materials.

Aloha wrote: "A Canticle for Leibowitz for the reason that I was unpleasantly surprised that I read a SciFi book that came highly recommended, that expounded Christian crap about non-Christian values being responsible for the apocalypse."

I completely agree. It didn't help that the author used the book as soapbox to preach about issues that I completely disagree with.

A lot of creationist actually firmly believe in science. I, myself, am one of them. Of course my point of view is full of theological arguments that I won't bring here, I do believe that religion and science really work together, but that an entirely different subject.

Authors have always use their writings to convey there ideas and beliefs, and one things that I find a bit sad is when people who called themselves open-minded persons actually are very judgemental toward religious people. Phillip Pullman wrote a series that clearly denonce the catholic church and the atrocities that they have through it's history and I completely agree with this vision he gave of this organization. I just find that the general idea of religion he gives is a bit harsh. But the point of this topic is mainly to know which books you don't like, not to have a religion discussion. :)

I like the His Dark Materials series but cannot stand anything by Orson Scott Card and not just because of his incredibly stupid political views.

I am right there beside you, Micael. Apart from The Golden Compass (I didn't mind that book), I did not enjoy the final books at all. There was too much contempt and derision in those books for me to enjoy them. I don't like "sermons" in my fantasy or sci-fi. I read them to escape, not to read some snide jackass shitting on people for not "believing" the same things he does, which was the impression i got from the final HDM book.

I think that there are only three books that i truly hate, the dark materials books i mentioned above, and The History of Rasselas, Prince of Abissinia.
I have my share of books i disliked reading, but there was always a chance that i would one day come back and give them one last shot before writing them off for good. Not so with my hate list. If someone asked my opinion on them, i would do everything in my power to cunningly ward them off picking them up. Coming in too strong could backfire and make them curious and read the damn things anyways.

@FertileSpade If you've read any Richard Dawkins you wouldn't say evolution is random chance. Not on the time scales evolution is mentioned within and given the environment of the changes. Most people wrongly assume evolutionary changes occur quickly. This couldn't be further from the truth with the exception of maybe viruses or bacteria.

I know that it isn't fantasy, but I truly hate "The Great Gatsby". The first few times I read it I liked it, but after the 6th time, read it for every English class in college, I can't stand it. The only other books I ready don't like are "Red Badge of Courage" and "The Lord of the Flies". I just couldn't really get into them and when it's even harder when they are required reading.

Canticle is not only awful for its idiotic message, but the writing style is subpar and boring, and the idea is unimaginative. A bunch of monks are holders of information and values while the rest of man blow themselves up. Huuuuloooooo!!!!! Why don't you hit me over the head with it? At least Pullman writes well and is imaginative while he punches organized religion in the stomach.

Boots wrote: "I still have to read His Dark Materials.

Aloha wrote: "A Canticle for Leibowitz for the reason that I was unpleasantly surprised that I read a SciFi book that came highly recommended, that expoun..."

I really disliked that last series by David Eddings, "The Dreamers". Not saying his previous books were amazing works of literature (as he himself would have said), but they were enjoyable, competent, and interesting (for the most part). Not so much in that final series, which I couldn't finish.

Aloha wrote: "Canticle is not only awful for its idiotic message, but the writing style is subpar and boring, and the idea is unimaginative. A bunch of monks are holders of information and values while the rest..."

It's funny that you don't see the witholding of information by religious organizations as a believable thing because the catholic church did it for the majority of the middle age period and the renaissance too.

FertileSpade wrote: "Nick wrote: "@FertileSpade If you've read any Richard Dawkins you wouldn't say evolution is random chance. Not on the time scales evolution is mentioned within and given the environment of the cha..."

This is starting to get off thread here. But I'll bite on this Gish Gallop. The Cambrian Explosion you reference was relatively rapid...about 30 million years or so...which is still a lot of time. There are debates as to the mechanisms that could account for the fossil record, but it doesn't change any of the principles of evolution from common descent which you don't seem to be against (detailed look at ID views of the Cambrian Explosion: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2004/... ). We are NOT descendants of apes, however, we share a common ancestry with apes...a more accurate distinction.

The problem I have with the "metaphor for people who had no conception of science" is that these people also would have not had any direct evidence for their metaphor, and it's presumptuous to assume only the Abrahamic story of creation is the only "scientific" one. Also "7 ages" are "consistent" with the fossil record? I'm not even sure what that means. There are dozens of Ages, Epochs, Periods, Eras, and Eons in the geologic time scale. Where does this match up?

The statisticians argument is a classic canard of creationists. A good breakdown of why the argument is incorrect can be found at Talk Origins: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abiop...

"intellegent design community. A group which more and more physicists and other scientists are subscribing to" this is what we refer to as the argument from authority fallacy. Also, you're using the wrong authorities since physicists are NOT the experts in the fields explaining evolutionary biology. Plus, it's quite a big assertion without any evidence since the vast majority of biological scientists, religious or otherwise, subscribe to one form or another of the Darwinian model. I'd like to see the evidence contradicting that.

I don't have to place my "faith" in anything per se. That's a false dichotomy. If I don't know something I then say "I don't know". It's the honest answer. And if I have some evidence for something, but nothing conclusive, I can believe it provisionally. We have a better and better idea as time keeps passing of what we might know. I wasn't there at the Battle of Little Big Horn, but from the mountain of evidence in varying textual documents, artifacts, and information passed on by the opposing force at the time, I can safely say, it is most likely Gen. Custer was stomped on pretty hard. That "you weren't there either" argument holds little water. Nowadays, I can be reasonable that life could have found a way to develop from the right conditions existing in this one spot in a vast universe because statistics need to also account for scope and length of time.

And please, stop conflating the concepts of abiogenesis with evolution. The specific origins of life itself may still be unknown, but as you pointed out, evolution is real, it happened, is happening, and will continue to happen as long as life exists on this planet. I'm not dumping on anyone's religion here...but if you're going to derail a thread big time, at least realize that a lot of your concerns have been addressed repeatedly by others in the biological sciences in the past. Intelligent design IS creationism...even legally speaking. The proof is in the developmental form of the term "cdesign proponentsists"...look it up. -- now back to books we hate.

I have no doubt about the withholding of information, or even the changing of information and laws of the Bible to suit the church's purposes. Historically, that has been done to manipulate the followers to donate more assets to the church, etc. The message in Canticle was that the church withheld information to keep it safe from the ignorant masses, because they are such heathens that they would use it for dangerous purposes, which they already have. The monks were painted as enlightened protectors of the world's precious information tut-tutting and sad at what the strayed children have done to themselves.

Jeez lol I should've choose another book to hate XD this thing is going out of control.

I haven't read canticle for leibovitz and I don't plan to. I actually agree with you that a vision in which religion consider everybody like imbeciles who shouldn't possessed knowledge is a bit too much. Although to think that christianity is about destroying any sort of knowledge and science is a actually not understand what it is. To base christians actions on the sole actions of the catholic church is a bit unfair actually. But again I don't want this topic to go into a big discussion on science and religion please guys, because i'm sick of them. Talk about the books people, THE BOOKS :)

Micael wrote: "Jeez lol I should've choose another book to hate XD this thing is going out of control.

I haven't read canticle for leibovitz and I don't plan to. I actually agree with you that a vision in which..."

Oh, I wasn't a big fan of the Annotated Dragonlance Chronicles...mostly, the annotations were pointless and redundant. Also, those early books really read like RPG campaign structures as opposed to fully fleshed out stories, which was unsurprising. I also couldn't stand The Tommyknockers by Stephen King and Servants of Twilight by Dean Koontz.

I agree about The Hunger Games, I really can't decide if I like it or not.

Also really hated Heart of Darkness and The Great Gatsby

FertileSpade wrote: "Michael wrote: "FertileSpade wrote: "Nick wrote: "@FertileSpade If you've read any Richard Dawkins you wouldn't say evolution is random chance. Not on the time scales evolution is mentioned within..."

I didn't make assumptions. I addressed your claims, you know, the factual ones where you say scientists do this and statisticians say that...the vast number of claims on a Goodreads group about fictional literature. If I am mistaking what you wrote, why don't you clarify each and every point carefully so that I don't misrepresent you.

Since I addressed the merits of your specific CLAIMS and not your IDEOLOGY, I would also like the courtesy in return.

My Most Hated Book is The Da Vinci Code. I just HATED it. I forced myself to finish it, and I almost never force myself to read something if I haven't gotten happily through the first three chapters.

Oddly, there are several Dan Brown books that I DO like. Just none of that particular series.

I couldn't stand The Good Earth back when I had to read it for high school, I might be able to go back through it now, but I doubt I'll ever find out.

I am with Alex
The Hunger Games hate is too strong a word I rarely ever use that word. I just don't get it. I am happy that young adults have something better then Twilight to read. But it surprises me when adults like it because the story did not seem new. there are books and movies that have already told very similar stories.

Jonathan wrote: "I couldn't stand The Good Earth back when I had to read it for high school, I might be able to go back through it now, but I doubt I'll ever find out."
I actually just read "The Good Earth", and I can say without a doubt that I would not have been nearly as interested in reading it in high school or even college. It is reflective and spans a man's life and the rising of the next generation. As a 30-something adult, I found it interesting, because I could relate better to the changing perspectives throughout the main character's life.

As for something I "hate", I'll have to think some more. There's plenty that I just didn't care for, but nothing off the top of my head that I absolutely "hate."

Christine wrote: "...But it surprises me when adults like it because the story did not seem new. there are books and movies that have already told very similar stories. .."

One of the advantages of books like the Hunger Games getting so much hype is that they are translated into different languages.
I had listened to The Hunger Games and thought it was a great book but couldn't get my daughter interested until she was given an edition in her mother-tongue. I bought her the rest of the series as it was translated so now we each own the trilogy in our mother-tongue.

She has read some books in English but her access to those similar stories you mentioned is limited; while she can read Hunger Games in an evening, a book in English will take her 2-3 weeks and she just doesn't have that amount of spare time with school work and extra-curricular activities.

I hated The Reality Dysfunction so much I care barely even talk about it. Did not lem it though. I would rather eat my eyeballs than read any more of that series.

i hate sanderson's "mystborn". I really disliked the world he built.

I have a philosophic thought about things I "hate" and what to do... I forget about it! I know there are books I totally hate, but I can't remember them. Why bother doing it? The only problem is when people speak about it all the time, then it impossible to forget it.


Writing this I remember one book that made me stop reading for a while: Nada. And I think I remember this book because I had an important exam about it so I had to memorize characters, plots and other useless stuff... (Arggh! I hate my policy of not burning books!)

Starship Troopers left me very disappointed. One of the few books where I thought the movie was better than it.

LOL. I expressed such a strong dislike for Canticle while it was a reading choice for the month, that I caused a debate. And of course, Pullman automatically came up. My policy is to not write a review for books I dislike, not worth mentioning or forgettable. The time I take to write a review is precious, so I don't like to waste it on mediocre books. Unfortunately, I got so deep into the debate, I now feel I need to write a review for it. It's been a few months and I still have not written the promised review. Maybe I'm hoping everyone's forgotten, because I still hate to put energy into a review of a detested book.

We had a similar discussion about a year ago (incidentally it was me who started the thread), so you might find other interesting answers here:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/533369-did-you-ever-read-a-book-that-you-really-hated

Let me introduce you to the mistress of book hate:

http://requireshate.wordpress.com/

I will never forgive Sarah Water's Fingersmith for lifting the plot of Wilkie Collins' The Woman in White without explicitly acknowledging it, meaning I was spoiled for the major mystery of The Woman in White when I read it a few weeks later.

I tried Empire by Orson Scott Card. I Remember a passage about Bill O'Reilly being an insightful, reasonable and impartial reporter of facts, and I stopped right there. I was already flagging after repetitious claims that liberals were destroying America, blah, blah, blah. I am admittedly very biased, but I can only take so much of being told that my political views are morally wrong, and ultimately stupid. That degree of polemic just pisses me off. So I don't sound hypocritical and overly biased toward liberalism, one of my best friends is a die hard republican, and I can't f**king stand Bill Maher or Michael Moore. I enjoy political debate with people who can be reasonable and level headed, but the above mentioned people always seem like they're just pounding on the table screaming and spitting vitriol all over anyone who disagrees with them.
Wow, I got way off topic. Anyhow, I hated Empire, but as I say, my opinion was based entirely on my own world view. I personally liked HDM, though I can agree with those who say Pullman was pretty heavy handed with the atheism. Good thread, by the way. It generated some interesting discussion.

I'm likely going to have something thrown at me for this but ... Twilight. REALLY did not like Twilight at all. Likely because I'm not the target audience for the book but still. I tried, I really friggin' tried but I couldn't even get past the first few pages. The way the author chose to write it just made me go 'The fuck?' too much to allow me to get into it. Plus the characters were very flat in my opinion.

Rick wrote: "I'm likely going to have something thrown at me for this but ... Twilight. REALLY did not like Twilight at all. Likely because I'm not the target audience for the book but still. I tried, I really ..."

Who could throw something at you for that, these books we're an insult to every human being with the ability to read. Not only is it the cheesiest crap there is, but the author have not a single shred of talent. She's a very bad storyteller.

I really dislike The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Of course, I got into fantasy with The Eye of the World, but I really think this series should've been much MUCH shorter. The vast majority of the characters are flat and uninteresting (past book 2), the pacing of the writing is abysmal, and the writing style is bland. The world and its history is the only thing that I find interesting in the series.

Christine wrote: "I am with Alex
The Hunger Games hate is too strong a word I rarely ever use that word. I just don't get it. I am happy that young adults have something better then Twilight to read. But it surprise..."

Exactly how I feel about The Hunger Games. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. Plus I hate books that was written quickly to become a trilogy.

FertileSpade wrote: "Michael wrote: "FertileSpade wrote: "Michael wrote: "FertileSpade wrote: "Nick wrote: "@FertileSpade If you've read any Richard Dawkins you wouldn't say evolution is random chance. Not on the time..."

I'm beginning to suspect that you have a very different idea about how the free exchange of ideas work...namely, that your arguments should somehow be above honest criticism. My apologies, but I don't buy that.

Indeed, I was courteous by addressing your ideas, and not your person. I did not engage in strawman arguments about your tone or your feelings, rather I questioned the validity of your supporting statements. Your response was to use a strawman and imply that I was "making assumptions" and being close-minded about your ideological stance. Courtesy would have been to address my concerns, not to dismiss them by accusing me of something that I didn't do. I'm sorry you aren't getting my point: I don't care what you believe, but your list of FACTS about evolution and intelligent design are inaccurate, incorrect, or misleading.

If you need an analogy, imagine I came in here and said I believe that aliens created the Eiffel Tower. And then I said I believe this because clearly Gustave Eiffel was known by some historians to have ray guns, telekinetic powers, and a flying saucer in the gardens of the Louvre. Now, if you were to say, "I don't think those claims are accurate", how could I possibly think you are making "assumptions" about me or that you were being discourteous? You would be addressing my asserted claims on reality, nothing more and nothing less.

And if I were to ignore your questions and your arguments, only to dismiss you based on being offended by something you did not even do, how is that courteous?

How about you two take it to a different thread?

As far as books we hate...

I don't really hate it, but I do loathe The Once and Future King.

Ala wrote: "How about you two take it to a different thread?

As far as books we hate...

I don't really hate it, but I do loathe The Once and Future King."

Fair enough...I'll drop it. I'm also not a fan of the Sword of Truth series myself. Just that first novel felt so forced and trite to me.

The Summer Tree was a disappointment and probably one of the rare books I'd say I truly hated. I think my dislike for it comes from actually being a huge fan of G. G. Kay's work and I was expecting something similar to his previous work and got five (was it five?) whiny kids in a fantasy world not half as good as some of his other work.

The rest of The Fionavar Tapestry is on my to-read list, simply because I'm stubborn and can hold onto hope far longer than anyone else I've met. So yeah, have to read them to see if it gets any better.

Agatha wrote: "and I was expecting something similar to his previous work"

The Fionavar Tapestry was recommended to me way back in high school. Off hand I don't know when he wrote every book he's put out, but most of what I am familiar with was post-Fionavar. It's very possible Fionavar was his earliest stuff, so maybe it suffers from first-book syndrome.

Gord wrote: "It's very possible Fionavar was his earliest stuff, so maybe it suffers from first-book syndrome. "


It is and it does.

Yeah, what I meant was, previous as in what I'd previously read. Sorry for the confusion; I am aware that Fionavar is his early stuff.

For myself, I would have to say The Iron Dragon's Daughter. I spent the entire book looking for a point. When I finished it I screamed and threw it out a handy window. :)

While I don't actually hate this one (though it came close) and I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I also have to mention Perdido Street Station. The second half basically wasted all of the potential built by the first half. It was like eating a cake that was nothing more than sawdust with pretty frosting.

I didn't like The Magicians, but my loathing is reserved for our eighth grade required reading, An American Tragedy, which seemed depressing and pointless and really long.

I know I am simplifying this, but really? Christian dislikes His Dark Materials. This is surprising how? As a devout atheist living in the US all I can say is your discomfort at the contempt that these books shows for religion is what non-christians deal with on a daily basis from a large segment of the culture in the US (and lots of other places - just really more over the top in the US than in most western countries, and granted its even worse in some other nations).

Also I may be criticized for being off topic, as ostensibly this thread was simply about books you hate (kind of a strong term, and I've read The Turner Diaries. Can't say I don't hate what it pushes, but I still find it hard to "hate" words on a page). I would argue that religion was a primary part of this post from the start, as the reasons for hating HDM was framed not just in religion, but specifically Christianity. Also the "Catholic Church is evil" from a Christian is sometimes shorthand for extreme evangelical / fundamentalist, and even if the author is not that comment's inclusion highlights that this topic was not simply about books you really dislike. (Sorry for so many edits, the thoughts kept coming...)

A book I have never liked and tried to read several times is Catcher in the Rye. I just don't like the writing style. I appreciate it for what it is, but it is not for me.

And put me down for a Twilight hater as well. I really hate the style and content matter.

Jack wrote: "I know I am simplifying this, but really? Christian dislikes His Dark Materials. This is surprising how? As a devout atheist living in the US all I can say is your discomfort at the contempt that t..."

I imagine this post is directed toward me and I will gladly answer. Yes the word hate may be a strong word but I didn't wanted to put any corelation between the word and the series I chose. I could've chose another word, but then again, I'm not going to question every word I choose out of fear of shoking.

I do agree with you that it's not just the catholic church that is abusive, any extremist is and that includes extremist atheists (which I did met o_O). Although comparing the evangelical/fundamentalist to the catholic church is a bit intense. People need to remember that not every christians around the world is crazy and judgemental, a lot of them find the americans ones very intense in their actions. I mean the catholic church is responsible for the worst abuses in the history of mankind. Incidentally, if I remember correctly they gave extensive excuses to the world for what it's worth. No matter what you believe in, there will always someone to judge you for it and I think it's a sad thing.

Of course I don't like the his dark materials series, because they basically say that what I believe is evil and stupid and that I'm an evil bastard for believing it in. I would be offended if I was an atheist and that I read a book that says that I'm a dumb ignorant for not believing. I think its a good enough reason not look like a book. I know that it can ignite a discussion on religion vs science and bla-bla-bla but it wasn't my intention. I could've choose to go with twilight because that is clearly I series that I genuinely hate, but then again, that's not very original is it hahahhaa.

Micael wrote: "I'm pretty curious to know which books you hate the most. For my part I have a strange hateful relationship with His Dark Materials. I know people are going to throw rocks at me for that hahaha, bu..."

Personally I fail to understand why religious people would hate the series.
(view spoiler)[Yes, the series is about killing "god", but in the series universe he isn't really a "god" in a sense that any of our religions see it. He is the first and the most powerful being, but he did not create the universe, he simply took the power for himself. As for churches in the universe, they are simply the extension of divine corruption. (hide spoiler)]


To me as an atheist the closest example would be Calculating God, in the books universe creationists are correct - the universe is fine-tuned for life and there's a god-like being who made sure we were here.

But the point is that even if in the real life I oppose such ideologies, in the fictional world author can choose to change how to universe is made, it in no way diminishes my enjoyment of the book.

The first one that comes to mind for me is Celia Dart-Thornton's "Bitterbynde Trilogy" that started with The Ill-Made Mute and finished with The Battle of Evernight.
The first book was wonderful and really sucked me in. Evocative language weaving a winding path through established literary fairy-tales, but giving them new life. I thought I was on to something special.
Unfortunately (imho) the main character lost depth and initiative in the second book (the Lady of Sorrows). Things started to bog down, and I was hoping for a resurgence in the last book. Nope. What followed (again imho) was a linear forced plot lacking all of the sparkle of the first book, and the ending was abrupt, contrived, and immensely unsatisfying. I felt betrayed. There have been other series that I have slogged through but not really liked ("The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" comes to mind), but this was the first to engage me, tantalize me with promises, then utterly fail to deliver. And for that reason they were also the first books I have ever traded in at a 2nd-hand book store, and prompted me to write a review warning people on Amazon.

Of course I don't like the his dark materials series, because they basically say that what I believe is evil and stupid and that I'm an evil bastard for believing it in. I would be offended if I was an atheist and that I read a book that says that I'm a dumb ignorant for not believing.

To be honest, that's the feeling I get from Narnia books and I still enjoy them. Well, most of them - sometimes it's harder to forget who Aslan is supposed to be.

Both HDM and The Narnia Chronicles are works of fiction, which is how I view them. And as I don't get offended by Lewis attempting to shove Christianity down my throat, I don't see why anyone should be offended by the themes in HDM. Atheists face much more of this than religious people, esp Christians, and we don't really complain.

Anyway.

I remembered another book I absolutely loathe, and that's Eragon and all of its sequels (apart from the last one, Inheritance, which I haven't read). I honestly cannot stand anything in these books. I hate the protagonist, I hate the plot, I hate all of the supporting characters, the 'woman of the novel' offends me and the style of writing is horrid.