Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

On May 1, the discussion of Martha Southgate's novel, The Taste of Salt, will begin. Here's a little biographical info about the author:

Martha Southgate is the author of four novels. Her newest, The Taste of Salt, was published by Algonquin Books. Her previous novel, Third Girl from the Left, won the Best Novel of the Year award from the Black Caucus of the American Library Association and was shortlisted for the PEN/Beyond Margins Award and the Hurston/Wright Legacy award. Her novel The Fall of Rome received the 2003 Alex Award from the American Library Association and was named one of the best novels of 2002 by Jonathan Yardley of the Washington Post. She is also the author of Another Way to Dance, which won the Coretta Scott King Genesis Award for Best First Novel. She received a 2002 New York Foundation for the Arts grant and has received fellowships from the MacDowell Colony, the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts and the Bread Loaf Writers Conference. Her July 2007 essay from the New York Times Book Review, “Writers Like Me” received considerable notice and appears in the anthology Best African-American Essays 2009. Previous non-fiction articles have appeared in The New York Times Magazine,O, Premiere, and Essence.

Here's a link to a review of the book from the San Francisco Chromicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article...

I'm also including here a link to her widely read essay on the difficulties faced by African American authors of literary fiction. Even though it was written in 2007, it is still relevant today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/boo...

Happy reading!

Finally a book I've already read so I can jump right in the conversation. Pretty excited!

How about everyone else? Have people been able to get the book?

I'm happy to say I've read this ahead of time as well. Finished the ebook about 2 weeks ago. Can't wait to start discussing it.

Mina: I will work on getting the book now at the library if available. I will be on short vacation for sis graduation in TN and see if I can read then or when I return after May 8th.

Mina I remember you enjoying this one alot. i am looking forward to the discussion

just started reading it this morning.

This is Southgate's third adult novel. Have any of us read her other books? I read and enjoyed both The Fall of Rome: A Novel and Third Girl from the Left.

I read The Fall of Rome late last year and enjoyed it. I haven't read Third Girl from the Left though.

I finished reading a couple of weeks ago. I'm ready to jump in.

I read this book back in October and really enjoyed it. I recommended it to two friends, they read it and we sat around and discussed it over fish and chips and brew. Enjoyable but heartbreaking. The cycle of addiction is so painful to all involved.

Surprised at the low rating from Goodreads readers though - 3.41? I don't normally pay attention to that too much but surprised at that rating in relation to the ratings of her other books. Are they that much better?

I also read The Taste of Salt several months ago and enjoyed. Looking forward to the discussion to kindle the thoughts I had when reading so can discuss with group.

I read The Taste of Salt about two months ago and enjoyed it. I've also read The Fall of Rome and Third Girl from the Left and enjoyed them both as well.

I loved this book. It was well written and truly a book that is relatable to any race or culture. So, this is my first time participating in a discussion. I have been lurking for months, even when I have read the books. So do we reply to someone who says something of interest? Are there questions posted?

Christine wrote: "I'm about 2/3 of the way complete and I'm enjoying it a lot. I really like the clipped, sparse sentences that are nonetheless evocative and full.

I'm having a hard time with the infidelity, tho..."


I agree. She was an unlikeable character in that respect. She was dead wrong and there was no reason to cheat on her husband. That is BS, it just happened. You are an adult and have control of your actions. It is called selfishness and I do what I want to do. Her husband was good to stick by her through the death of her brother. He's better than me. LOL

Sorry to ask so many questions. I see folks have rated the book. How do I go about doing that?

Thanks

LaShanta wrote: "I read The Taste of Salt about two months ago and enjoyed it. I've also read The Fall of Rome and Third Girl from the Left and enjoyed them both as well."


I loved both of those books also. Southgate is one of my favorites.

This is one of the few books (possibly the only one) with an African American woman scientist as the protagonist. What did you think of Josie and her life and career at Woods Hole?

Wilhelmina wrote: "This is Southgate's third adult novel. Have any of us read her other books? I read and enjoyed both The Fall of Rome: A Novel and Third Girl from the Left."

I read The Fall of Rome when first published. Enjoyed the storyline and her writing style. The Third Girl from the Left has been sitting on my bookshelf unread for no other reason than lack of time, but I planning on reading.

Dera wrote: "Christine wrote: "I'm about 2/3 of the way complete and I'm enjoying it a lot. I really like the clipped, sparse sentences that are nonetheless evocative and full.

I'm having a hard time with the..."

I will have to agree that Josie was not a likeable character at this point. But, as with most people who "cheat" - they will have a reason that makes sense to them (or at least the reason) they will use to convince themselves and others that they are not a bad person. No one wants to think about themselves as "bad" so "excuses/reasons" are presented.

So my question is - do you think this was out-of-character for Josie? Were you surprised that she cheated? (I know the author did a good job of preparing us that this was going to happen)

Wilhelmina wrote: "This is one of the few books (possibly the only one) with an African American woman scientist as the protagonist. What did you think of Josie and her life and career at Woods Hole?"

I really enjoyed that the protagonist was a black female scientist, and she was able to pursue her career goals. I also enjoyed the author's treatment on how being the "only or one of the few" blacks in a given profession/position/company. I think many blacks can relate to this.

When reading the book - I remember noting how a generation made a difference. Josie was able to pursue her career choice while her father was frustrated that he could not fufill his career choices.

I loved the fact that Southgate made the protagonist a senior scientist.  And a marine biologist at that. Josie was distinctly aware that she was an anomaly in her field and if she wasn't her colleagues made it abundantly clear by their actions at the conference where she met her future husband. 

I was also fascinated by Woods Hole, MA and the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, and was surprised to learn it's an actual private research center.  Never heard of it before. The author provided a rather interesting setting and really made you smell the salty water in this tiny village. Impressive!

I enjoyed the book and felt Southgate did a good job developing the characters. I so recognized the father's character and the fact that life and a repetitive job just led him to drink. Although he had was most people dream of; a family, house, good job, etc. I like other members mentioned could not understand the infidelity because it was so unnecessary. Josie had a good husband who loved her, wanted to have children and spent the rest of life with her. I don't know what she was looking for?

Dera wrote: "I loved this book. It was well written and truly a book that is relatable to any race or culture. So, this is my first time participating in a discussion. I have been lurking for months, even when ..."

hi dera! glad you are participating in the discussion. we generally keep it loose, with the moderator introducing themes or scenes and people jumping in with what they think about them.

you rate the book by giving it stars.

well i made the mistake of reading the thread and now i know things i'd rather have discovered on my own, reading. oh well. :)

i love that the protagonist is a competent and acknowledged marine scientist. i love that she's always the lone african american and the lone african american woman, not because it's good to be the lone african american, but because she's there, she made it, she's been portrayed in a novel, and people can stop thinking of african american women as whatever the movies want us to think of them (cashiers in supermarkets? hookers? salespeople?).

i'll say more when i've read more, but so far i like this book very much. for some reason which i don't remember i didn't like Fall of Rome, but this, this is great.

I'm still waiting for the library to have a copy available for me to read, but the Fall of Rome is ready, so I can read it until A Taste of Salt arrives.

hmmmm. well, I have now finished the novel. I'll try not to divulge any secrets. I'd have to say I personally have many mixed feelings about the book. there are things I like quite a bit, and things I'm not fond of at all. I don't know that I really got emotionally attached to any of the characters completely, although I thought it was generally well written. and I wanted to. I really did. Do I appreciate the fact that she was a highly intelligent black woman with education and skills? yes, but that just wasn't enough in the end. I certainly wanted to like Josie, but in the end, I wasn't able to even if I'd like to think I understand much of what she went through.

I certainly know Cleveland well enough since my wife is from there and I've spent a fair amount of quality time there over the past 30 years. Including just about every place and street she mentioned, but I find it a very depressing place in spite of the fact there were and still are people there I care for. It's hard to watch it deteriorate to such an alarming extent over time. My impression is that the people from Cleveland who do well are the ones who leave, although I'm willing to accept there are exceptions. and I'm not personally unfamiliar with people with serious drug and alcohol problems.

I think you could make a very reasonable case that her profound disappointment with her father affected every other relationship she had. I just didn't feel that was enough to make this work for me.

Several people have mentioned Josie's father and his disappointments in life. Did other readers find this to be familiar or understandable? (I certainly did.)

Maybe we should hold off a bit on the infidelity issues until most of us reach that point in the book.

I read The Third Girl From the Left and really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed both of the books immensely.

I really did enjoy The Taste of Salt for the very reasons I think most people didn't like it. I quite enjoyed Josie's relationship with her father or the way she handled that relationship because of his addiction and the fact that the author didn't shy away from those feelings and emotions we find unpleasant. Even though her father tried Josie wasn't ready to accept that trying and I think that is true in so many instances. But I also thought it was healthy in it's own way.

I found Josie's father and his disappointments in life to be very familiar and I dare not say understandable, even though it happens a lot of times. I wish he would've continued with his writing and reading as a means of dealing with his drudgery of his job. It's called no coping skills. Someone mentioned that he should've been happy with having a job, a family, owning a home but h wasn't doing what he loved to do and it seemed his manhood was being stripped from him, working a job that he hated. But having to take care of his family, he didn't feel that he could make a living doing what he loved. Responsibility for others meant he couldn't do what he wanted to do because it wouldn't allow him to take care of the others. Why didn't he feel or put forth an effort to do both.

George wrote: "hmmmm. well, I have now finished the novel. I'll try not to divulge any secrets. I'd have to say I personally have many mixed feelings about the book. there are things I like quite a bit, and thing..."

i have now finished the book too (it's a fast read!) and i'd like to answer mina's question about josie's father but first i'd like to answer george on the point of (not) getting attached to the characters. i'll just say, first off, that i liked the book tremendously. it seems to me a complex book that looks like a simple book. anyway, george, i don't think that all books mean to lead us to like the characters, though most do. so if we use this -- i felt the characters -- as a litmus test of whether a book is good, some excellent books will fail.

i don't think any of the characters in this book is a character we are meant to like. we know so little about them. the only one would be josie, but southgate makes her so morally complex, so angry and withdrawn, she is simply not likable (though she may be relatable to some of us). it's risky to write a book with a non-likable protagonist and i must say this impresses me. that i found the book really compelling even though i didn't "feel" the protagonist is a sign of how good this book is, in my opinion.

i don't know what to say about the father. he has his demons. he had dreams and the dreams slipped away from him. he loves his family but he likes to be passed out more. since i don't have a connection to fathers it's hard for me to talk about him. others will do that better.

i was more interested in josie's reaction to him. she cuts him off so completely, and this action affects her life so deeply... i wish i had the emotional tools to understand that. maybe i do. but i don't know what it is like to live with an alcoholic, though i do know what it is like to live with an absent father. i think my feelings toward my father and toward fathers in general are just about as frozen as josie's, minus the anger. i feel numbness. i feel entirely numb. even the fact that throughout the book josie unconsciously craved for her father is incomprehensible to me. i cannot imagine a connection with my father. i just couldn't.

Jo I agree what I thought would be a simple books is quite complex. I really like that about it. I do think there is more of a movement to expose females to the sciences. I am not sure if I where I noticed though. I think a while back there was a webcast with some NaSa astronauts and the Obama's talking and raising intrest in exposure of both genders to the sciences.Although I know I was discussing this with a co worker and they really felt the sciences were I guess I would say genetically predisposed in males.

I appreciate your telling us about your own relationship with your Father jo it does sound like it is complex?

Can someone expound more on the shame of factory work? I don't quite understand it. But do know when I married my ex husband that my family felt he was beneath me because of the lack of education and lower middle class upbringing. In the end it really did effect our marriage because I always wanted better for him but he was content doing cashier or janitorial work. It should have been okay but for me I guess it wasn't.

I was intrested how Southgate wrote the games the children played. They were really revealing about what the children were feeling and going through emotionally. In particular the one about the Eagles and mother bird and her egg.

I think I am okay with the characters being somewhat distance. Because there is such a powerful storyline underneath I think it brings a nice balance.

There was a time when being employed in the auto industry was considered by many as acceptable employment. For some it meant a step into the blue collar world where in some cases a step out of poverty. However white collar workers viewed it as an inferior position.

In the case of Josie's father, I see it from two perspectives. His wife's family see him as beneath her even though he was able to care for them financially. On the other hand, even if he had been a white collar worker he would have been dissatisfied because he so desperately wanted to write. I believe that this was huge in his mind an, as a result, due to his propensity toward alcohol, this is the route he took.

i agree with jean. i find it fascinating how this book explores (among other things) the devastating effect that failing to achieve one's artistic potential can have on people. ray is a man of letters. he loves books and he loves to write. even if he had not been able to write, it would have been immensely gratifying for him to be able to have an intellectual life.

it's also interesting that neither of his kids gives him that satisfaction. southgate points out many times that josie, though certainly a most educated person, doesn't read fiction.

if you aspire to a life of the mind and just can't get it -- well, it's hard.

when southgate describes ray's post-separation life, the most delicious moments are the ones spent reading on the couch with his partner, each reading his or her own book. i know this pleasure and it is a great pleasure indeed. sometimes it turns a bad day around.

@ rebecca: if anyone told me that men have a genetic predisposition to science while women don't, i couldn't guarantee their safety!

i didn't pay much attention to the children's games. can you tell us more, rebecca, about what you saw in the eagle game?

maybe his real problem with alcohol was more due to the fact that he really wanted to write but didn't have any particular aptitude. not that I think working on a production line everyday isn't mind numbing. both of his kids were bright, as was his wife, Tick never really wanted to do anything with his gift and Josie went off in a different direction with hers, so he couldn't live vicariously through either one.

This character reminded me of the many brilliant African American men I heard about growing up who never were able to find jobs that utilized their intelligence. Growing up in DC, the classic example was the Post Office, where many well educated black men found jobs sorting mail. Around the corner from the main post office was a liquor store, and as soon as the shifts changed, the line to buy alcohol stretched down the street.

seriously? like you saw it with your eyes?

Yep. All the time.

this puts things in a totally interesting historical perspective (for those of us who don't know those things!).

i also wanted to say that my edition has readers' questions at the end. if you guys want, i can put them up here.

I got my copy today. It's a steady read and I'm enjoying it.

Wilhelmina wrote: "How about everyone else? Have people been able to get the book?"

Wilhelmina wrote: "...Growing up in DC, the classic example was the Post Office, where many well educated black men found jobs sorting mail. Around the corner from the main post office was a liquor store, and as soon as the shifts changed, the line to buy alcohol stretched down the street."

There are certain workplace cultures which encourage drinking. The same can be said of Tick's profession. And if father and son were both genetically predisposed to alcoholism...there you go.

I found that I cared about all of the main characters, even when I didn't like what they were doing. I felt vested in Josie's success as a marine biologist, because she had found her passion. And I loved the bond she had growing up with her brother.

In spite of the good elements of their early family dynamic, they could not withstand the addiction.

jo I was peeking at the questions I would love to see some posted. There are many that interest me.

Is there any particular question you want to post at this point, jo? Feel free at any time!

i will, tomorrow! good night for now GReaders!

I finished today and I say Now that is how you write a story.

Rebecca wrote: "I finished today and I say Now that is how you write a story."

I agree. Immensely talented

George wrote: "hmmmm. well, I have now finished the novel. I'll try not to divulge any secrets. I'd have to say I personally have many mixed feelings about the book. there are things I like quite a bit, and thing..."

I totally agree with you George. I just felt like something was missing in this story.

There are several good questions in regards to addiction, alcoholism in particular, in the back of the book. Maybe we can group them all together. The questions are fairly general and will not give away any clues for those still reading the book:

1) What impact do you think race has on the alcoholism of the addicted characters in the book?

2) Josie's father Ray, and her brother, Tick, both struggle with alcoholism and other addictions. Does Josie harbor any addictions of her own?

3) While there is alcoholism in the African-American community, as in any other community in the United States, relative few memoirs or novels have been published about it. Why do you think that might be the case?

4) How does the author portray her alcoholic characters - sympathetically or unsympathetically? How do those portrayals affect how we feel about everyone in the family?

5) The characters in the Henderson family have wildly varying reactions to the culture and tenets of Alcoholics Anonymous. What do you think of their range of responses? Are you familiar with the organization? If you are, what are your feelings about it?

Latasha wrote: "I read this book before and am glad I can jump right into the discussion too. For me what is missing is more about Josie's father. The hints she gave about him growing up in the South and moving No..."

I agree i think we really did'nt get much background of Josie's father. I wish she could have went a little deeper with his story. Josie just really annoyed me she was too worried about her image and making sure nothing wrecked it.

I didn't think Josie was a weak protagonist at all --quite the contrary, in fact. I do think that Southgate presented equally strong characters in Ray, Tick, the mother and Josie's husband, however.     The latter two were not fleshed out as much but that was likely intentional and I didn't feel the story lost much without a more detailed background on them. There were parts of the story where I became totally frustrated with Josie and wanted to shake her, but, I thought that was also likely intentional in that the author wanted to show this relatively young, intelligent black professional woman who seems to have everything going for her yet has some serious flaws, issues (some of her own doing of course). I found that quite moving and truthful.

some spoilers.

well, for me the thing about Josie is that she seems to have everything going for her personally, but it all falls apart for her without any apparent outside force causing it. of course, I'd say that it's the damage caused by her father's abandonment due to his alcoholism that has made her so emotionally fragile, but even so her own abandonment of her husband for no apparent reason is difficult to accept, particularly as she gets so little in return. Ray and Tick have more excuse and are easier to forgive.