Divergent Series (Veronica Roth) discussion

I FINISHED THE BOOK!!!!!! I REALLY NEED VERONICA’S WRITING SKILLS TO HELP DESCRIBE THE AMAZINGNESS. Oh. My. God.

:O

Here you can discuss it without worrying about hiding spoilers. If you haven’t read the book, don’t read this page!

Just finished! It was so good! But the ending? We have to live with the anticipation of what's going to happend next ...forever (im not going to make it) Veronica needs to write the next one right away!!!
I love this book so much!

I LOVED the secret that we found out at the end! When I read Divergent, I bought that it could be a dystopian society, with a history like the one we were given at Tris's Choosing Ceremony. But the idea of all of this as some sort of social experiment with a larger purpose behind it? IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!

Obviously we don't know many details yet (What *exactly* does it mean to be Divergent, in the context of the larger world? Why is creating Divergence in experimental subjects going to better the rest of the world? How the heck would the Divergent people do anything to curb the destructive nature of human beings?), but I can't wait to see where Veronica Roth goes with this!

Do you guys think that each faction's core serums (examples: the stuff in Amity's bread, Truth Serum, the testing serum) were given to them at the beginning of the experiment? Is that why Jeanine said that Candor "jealously guards" the Truth Serum? When I first read that line, I thought it was very strange, because I assumed that the Erudite had developed the Truth Serum FOR Candor, so why couldn't Jeanine just create a new batch of her own? But it would makes sense that each faction started out with their own serums (at least Dauntless, Amity, and Candor--do Erudite and Abnegation have any real serums that they use?), and that would also explain why Jeanine doesn't have access to her own Truth Serum.

It would also explain why Erudite got into the "serum business" at all--their false histories/identities must've included aptitude for the serums, both to explain the serums' existence in their society (they'd get suspicious otherwise), and to give them the ability to continue developing serums that would help them find out who was Divergent. I assume they were never meant to use it for mind control.

Also, question: Did we ever find out how Jeanine knew about the secret's existence to begin with? Was it just because Erudite had made it so that they had access to everyone else's data? And she was killing Divergent people mostly so that the Abnegation wouldn't find about them, is that the case? Hoping that the Divergent population would never be revealed to be as high as it was, so that they could stay in Chicago forever?

This post was way longer than I intended it to be! What do you guys think?

I'm not sure weather it was a 'social experiment', or a way to weave out the natural human charastics that we have, that caused distruction throughout their society. I think it was more of allowing the Divergent population grow, so that there were more 'open minded' people; so to speak.
We found out, while Tris was being experimented on, that her Divergence allows her to see things for what they really are, to annalise things in a different way; be more objective. If Veronica is thinking how I am, then I see how having more Divergent could make for a more rational world, leaving the destruction of the past behind.
I deffinetly think that a serum was given to each faction at the start of their society, but from what I can tell when Dauntless allied with Eurdite they gave their serum to them so they could annalise it.
I thought that maybe, the serum used during initiation might have been Eurdites original serum.
Im thinking that Jeanine found out about the secret existence video, by an insider, because when Tris's mom was going to retrieve it, it was just a file that she could grab, so it wasn't on the computers...
I feel like I need to re-read both books to get a better understanding of what's going on... hopefully my ideas and thoughts might spark something you read... if it does help me out here! lol
I'm still surprised about Caleb, I never thought him to be so weak minded.
One of the only things that I didn't quite follow was how Tobis's mom was able to get the guns away from the Dauntless... I mean, I see how... but their Dauntless (I see myself as one, or Divergent, of course. ;). ) I would never give up my gun after I just fought a war!!!!!! Honestly, that would be dumb!
Let me know if anyone else has other thoughts!

I used the term "social experiment" very loosely, but the project was definitely centered around a society that I maintain was an experiment. One that the larger world was heavily relying on, but an experiment nonetheless. They literally erased human beings' minds and placed new identities in the bodies--the original members of the society were essentially under a type of simulation for the rest of their lives--and however advanced the technology, something could've gone wrong. Something already HAS gone wrong--look at the war that erupted--and something could *still* go wrong. We have no idea what everyone will do with this information now, and if they wanted to, they could all go the way of Jeanine and decide that they want to kill all the Divergents and start from scratch within their Chicago confines.

I like the way you describe Divergence--that it helps them be more objective and think in so many different ways--but two things are bothering me here. One, there must be more people on Earth, because the members of the factioned society are meant to go out and "help others." But how will they do that? The Divergents are going to, what, enter the rest of society and start to govern it with their amazing objectivity and way of looking at the world? I still don't understand *how* the Divergents will help the larger society, unless they're put in some sort of ruling position. And even if the current rulers of the world know about what was going on in Chicago and are meant to step down as rulers once the Divergents can come in and rule, how in the world would *that* go off without a hitch? You'd have Divergents who don't want to rule and rulers who would be resistant to losing their power.

I might just be hitting a mental block here. I really can't figure out how else the existence of numerous Divergents and their non-Divergent peers would aid the rest of society in any way. Especially when the fight is against human nature itself. If that's the argument, then why didn't everyone just use the Amity serum on the entire world's population and leave it at that? Seems like a peaceful society to me. My only other guess is that the world wanted to see if the faction system would hold up, as a test to see if they should spread it to the rest of the world, but if that were the case, then why was the goal to create Divergent minds? What does that have to do with anything? Do they just want to know how to make Divergent minds submit the same way they can get other minds to submit? So that they can be truly assured that a faction system would work for the larger world (a.k.a. preparing a way to force the inevitable rebel Divergents to submit like the others)?

The second thing that bothers me that I alluded to before was that being Divergent seems to me no different than being a regular human being in a free society. Didn't all of us first think in Divergent, "Oh, cool, this faction idea is interesting! I wanna figure out which faction I'd be in!" But then as you read on, you realized how STRICT each faction was, and how they really brainwash their members to think and act in a certain way, based on "faction rules"? And didn't you say, "THIS IS STUPID, everyone knows that you should be brave, but not stupid; selfless, but have your own identity; intelligent, but creative and open-minded, etc."? Beatrice shows signs of that type of thinking early on in Divergent, but we find out later that's only because she is a Divergent. But isn't that how almost any human being would reaction to the faction system after a while?

It's like Amanda Ritter and co. MADE the original members of the faction society to be relatively mindless (a.k.a. only fitting into one faction, easily molded into one image with everyone else in a faction) and wanted to see what would happen after a few generations. What's the point of that? I don't think the original members of the faction society were typical human beings. If they were, there would've been a higher percentage of Divergence among them and their children. So what was the point of the whole thing?

I'm not being critical of Veronica Roth at all (quite the opposite, in fact, because I trust that the third book will answer all my questions and more), but I just think there's A LOT that we don't know yet, and I'm having fun asking questions and trying to figure out where we're headed in the last book.

I think that whatever it was, it's a wild idea that Veronica had... Just the fact that such an 'experiment' had occurred, and without the current faction members knowing about it; a whole society built on lies; just makes me want to find out what occurred before Chicago was gated in.

But one of my questions is, how will the factions view this video? I agree that since the 'experiment' has already gone wrong, will it continue to deteriorate? Will they go explore to see if other cities have been under the same kind of experiment, or will they allow the information to blow up in their faces and have their community (what’s left of it anyway) crumble into bits?

I'm wondering the same thing you are...if the Divergent's leave Chicago what are they going to find? What are they going to be able to do to help? They are only a small fraction of people... but I’m thinking that they might be able to give their insight into government.

Another thing... does the outside world know of this 'experiment', have they been waiting for the Divergent to come and help to re-build the world... So many things need to be answered for me! :)

I like how you’re thinking... I feel like i'm kind of thinking inside the box here; not outside of it. But anyway. It seems strange to have given the Amity a 'peace' serum and not have used it on the world before creating this almost... inhumane 'experiment'.

(Okay; outside of the box I’m thinking this) You had said that being Divergent (thinking like a Divergent) seems to be a 'normal' human thing. But what if in the society before the 'experiment' people had lost that sense of humanity, self-lessens, everything that we value today. When I say this i’m trying to think of the worst possible thing that could ever happen to the world. What if they were messing around with serums and one became out of hand and that's what had caused the people to become destructive. And now they are waiting for the Divergent to come and help people see that they were under the most horrific of simulations; being set out to destroy the world.
There almost seems to be and endless amount of things that could have occurred.

Another thing, about the ‘point’ of creating this society... what if a serum had changed the human gene, and they were hoping that as generations passed the genes might recede and therefore the population would have more Divergent; so that the world would have 'normal humans' again.

Oh I don't think that you’re being critical. Just curious... Well that’s how I feel anyway. I want to know the story behind everything.
Including Tobias's mom and dad, I feel like there’s more to be known and it’s bugging me!

I LOVE your insights! I LOVE Evelyn! I’m not sure about Marcus and that’s bothering me too. Was he right when he spoke about the importance of the file??

I like Evelyn as well. But something about her... she left her son (under bad circumstances) but still. And the way she spoke to Tris, when Tris questioned what Evelyn was up too.
Then she seemed to be losing it a bit towards the end of the book. I think that I feel like she should be working with the Dauntless not trying to suppress their power. She should allow them to join and work as a community to rebuild what they all lost.
Also when she had said that, a few weeks back, the Dauntless were still trying to further limit the supplies sent to the factionless; I believe that it was just the leaders of Dauntless (not sure). But I feel it was a false accusation in order for her to just gain more authority among her own group.
But I think that Marcus was right about the file. It needed to be shown to everyone. But I still hate him…


Sorry, starting to ramble on and on!

I completely agree with you, Mariah! Evenlyn is a cool character, but she's dangerous, and we really don't know much about her yet. She has good ideas (if we didn't know about the "secret," then I'd be rooting for her plan of destroying the faction system), but I think she's gotten a little power hungry herself.

I literally "oooh"ed out loud at your idea that the humans have been messing around with technology and serums so much that they've changed the human gene pool, and they've literally had to create this "experiment" in order to see if they could cleanse people over time in isolation! That would also fit with Amanda Ritter's line, "It is against human nature itself--or at least what it has become." And "Divergence" is really nothing more than humanity restored! And hey, maybe the rest of the world *is* all under the Amity serum now--maybe that was the only way the world government(s) could sustain the world population and prevent them from destroying themselves while the "experiment" played itself out...

This is so much fun!

I agree Kim, if we didn’t know the 'secret' then I would love her! But, honestly her character kind of scares me (at least what she has the power to do anyway!).
Oh, I think that Evelyn is way to power hungry, but I want to know what caused it! I'm thinking that being kicked out of Abnegation might have done it; But what if she’s the one who leaked the information about the video to the Erudite. Just so she could cause the other factions to weaken so she could take over. (Tell me if I’m going overboard here) ...
I think that at times humans 'overlook' what we might be creating; and the serums overpowering us causing an out of control gene pool seems a reasonable explanation... a scary one though...
I think your right about how the world may be under the Amity serum now, but that makes me wonder... is that serum powerful enough to overpower a simulation? (If that is what happened).

Arrrrrgggghhhh, I have so many questions that I NEED to be answered!

But it is fun to 'debate' and discuss what could happen! :)

I believe Tris's comment that Evelyn is lying about almost being "exiled" from Abnegation, if only because her instincts are almost always right, and she's relatively unbiased when it comes to Evelyn (as compared to Tobias). But I like the idea that she could've been the one to leak the video to Erudite! Do we know if she was ever an Abnegation leader? Maybe that's why Marcus is so gung-ho about not giving away the secret to people--because his wife once knew it, and then she left them, and he realized that she could do whatever she wanted with that information now. And he never wanted that to happen again?

I must say it’s been very hard to follow what everyone’s thinking is. I don’t understand still. Or maybe my brain is just not accepting what everyone’s saying because it’s not coming from Roth. I don’t know. Lol

Rebecca, I think we're still trying to figure out our thoughts as well, haha!

That is very true! Tris seems to always fully understand the situation; and unfortunately Tobias seems to be very biased when it comes to his parents. But I expected that, after what he went through!
I don’t think that Evelyn was an Abnegation leader... but hey, you never know.
That sounds like a good thought, because Marcus seems like a control freak that wants to stay in power.
What do you think about Peter? I feel like he's up to no good. But I’m glad he saved Tris.

Rebecca; Kim and I have some wild ideas of what all the small details and actions mean. We may be over thinking some things, but it’s so much fun to try and figure out all of the cliffhangers! Our thoughts are everywhere! haha :)

I’d love to sum up our ideas into a list when it comes closer to the third book’s release date.

I do not like Peter. He was making it hard for me to hate him but when I reread Divergent after Insurgent (I couldn’t get enough after Insurgent… lol) I hated him so bad it reminded me he’s not a good person.

I...am still trying to figure out what I feel about Peter. I almost wanted to ship Peter and Tris at first (proud Draco/Ginny supporter since '02 right here), but he's really so pathetic, there's nothing redeeming about him. (He was so pathetic in Insurgent that I would find myself wanting to like him and then have to remind myself what a scum of the earth he was in Divergent.) He said it himself: he goes where the advantage is. Completely self-serving. I am fascinated about how he got that way, though. Do you think we'll find out more of his background in the third book?

Hahaha.
He really is pathetic in Insurgent, I wanted to like him too (well at least feel sorry for him); he just seems like scum to me! lol

I know what you mean about being fascinated by him; like why did he come at the end of the fight? Did he come to sabotage the fight? Also I keep wandering about what Tris said about his mother;(she thought that Peter's mom seemed perfectly fine even thought her husband had died); is she able to keep a straight face or was it just a mask, or did Peters dad do so something horrible (or good for the Divergent) to make them not want to grieve him.
I feel like I'm not making any sense! Sorry!

Rebecca; I like the idea to sum up our ideas. But when’s the next book coming out. I haven’t heard anything yet!

You’re making perfect sense— I just don’t remember anything about Peter’s parents :P (I will for sure be reading Insurgent again as when I read it I was in a race with my friend! Lol. So I didn’t take in a lot of information then)

OMG!!! I haven't even got it from the library yet! I asked my librarian for it the other day though so it's coming! :)

Don’t read this page!

Good advice ^^^ ;)

ok. :( i think my librarian lied when she said she ordered it....

Why dont you buy the ebook or something?

Wow I've never heard of a lying librarian... or what about Inter-Library-Loaning(ILL) it? I find it super handy when I want a book and then I get it! For free!

Peter is interesting and is my 3rd fav character so far, I feel we will find a lot of surprises with him in the 3rd book. He just seems to be trying too hard to show people he’s this bad guy that cares about nothing. Maybe something to do with his father like 4?

I think he asked to be placed on guard when Tris came in, as soon as he was guarding her I knew he was going to help since she saved his life and all.

P.S. who wanted to punch the crap out of Caleb when Tris saw him?

"P.S. who wanted to punch the crap out of Caleb when Tris saw him?"

*raises hand*. ME!!!!

Abbie wrote: "Rebecca wrote: " "P.S. who wanted to punch the crap out of Caleb when Tris saw him?"

*raises hand*. ME!!!!"

I couldn't believe what Caleb did!! When Caleb was originally introduced and we saw him..."

It was a great twist on Roth's part, but good lord. In the beginning I was all "Oh, how cute! He's giving Four the 'stay away from my little sister' talk!"

Then he was all energetic adorableness. "The way the irrigation system works is really blah blah blah blah"

Then Caleb decided to get all psychotic. "SISTER GO DIE IN A HOLE BECAUSE GOD FORBID WE ANTISOCIAL GENIUSES VENTURE OUT OF OUR CITY."

lol i agree

Meredith wrote: "Abbie wrote: "Rebecca wrote: " "P.S. who wanted to punch the crap out of Caleb when Tris saw him?"

*raises hand*. ME!!!!"

I couldn't believe what Caleb did!! When Caleb was originally introduced ..."
Ahahaha. I imagine Caleb in nerdy cute glasses, saying the "stay away from my lil sister" talk to Four...and you all know Four XD

Me and my friend just realized something really bad. In each book two big characters die. In Divergent Will and Al died. In Insurgent Lynn and Marlene died. But who is going to die in the next book? FOUR CAN'T DIE!!!!! (I really like it if was Peter not Four)

Does anyone know what the 3rd book is called? Or when we will find out what it will be called?
Also has anyone read free 4?? if so how does it compare to divergent??? :)

Veronica seems to want the title to be Detergent. It's not official yet. (it's a good title if you don't think about laundry....)

I have an interesting theory... what if, to "cure" humanity, the government of the real world is planning to put everyone under a simulation? That way they could stop the violence that they say is plaguing humanity. The Divergents would be necessary to control the simulation, since they would stay aware.

Any thoughts?

Codee wrote: "I have an interesting theory... what if, to "cure" humanity, the government of the real world is planning to put everyone under a simulation? That way they could stop the violence that they say is..."

The evil government's tagline could be "Cleansing Humanity" and then the title COULD be Detergent!

A good title for book 3 would be Resurgent. :)

Resurgent;
rising again; rising or becoming stronger again.

Meredith wrote: "Codee wrote: "I have an interesting theory... what if, to "cure" humanity, the government of the real world is planning to put everyone under a simulation? That way they could stop the violence th..."

Haha I love it! I hope she goes with Resurgent or something like it though, simply because people will probably make fun of the name Detergent, and I reallyyy don't want a the series to become a laughingstock *cough cough Twilight*. Divergent is 1,000 times better, obviously, but I still worry.

I saw someone suggested that the factions were originally given the serums at the beginning of the experiment, but I couldn't find the exact message. I think it's probably true of Candor's truth serum, because as someone pointed out, they "guard it jealously."

I'm pretty sure the fear serum was invented by Erudite though.
This scene comes right before Jeanine is about to torture Tris with the concentrated fear serum. "When I was developing the Dauntless simulations, years ago, we discovered that certain levels of potency overwhelmed the brain and made it too insensible with terror to invent new surroundings, which was when we diluted the solution so that the simulations would be more instructive. But I still remember how to make it."

Codee wrote: "Meredith wrote: "Codee wrote: "I have an interesting theory... what if, to "cure" humanity, the government of the real world is planning to put everyone under a simulation? That way they could sto..."

Yeah. It's bad enough that Divergent sounds like Detergent and Insurgent sounds like Insurance. LOL.

Just finished! Now to wait in anticipation for book 3! Does anyone get a feel of the movie "The Village" ? Kind of similar idea with a society seperated from todays society due to the loss of humanity. That movie goes to the past though.......

Anyway, I so love Tris and Tobias together! Glad the way that concluded!

Amber wrote: "Just finished! Now to wait in anticipation for book 3! Does anyone get a feel of the movie "The Village" ? Kind of similar idea with a society seperated from todays society due to the loss of human..."

Haha I totally thought of that too!

read free four i loved it and saw how tobias and tris ... yeah you know what i mean

i finished in 3 days and stood in line for hours how do you think i feel i need to go through such a long period of waiting time :(

Codee wrote: "I have an interesting theory... what if, to "cure" humanity, the government of the real world is planning to put everyone under a simulation? That way they could stop the violence that they say is..."

Great theory! That would explain the Divergent to help us comment by Amanda Ritter aka Edith Prior (Who else thinks Edith must be Tris's grandmother, the computer did say she was "2nd generation)

Amanda Ritter aka Edith Prior says she is part of the resistance so I think a lot of people want to be bad so the Amity serum thing can't work if they don't want to take it "in the real world" and the resistance couldn't fight if they did. Also being nice is nice but not sticking up for yourself is stupid (guess I'm not Amity)

Peter is what humanity has become and he hasn't changed. He is a "failure" of the experiment, whereas Tris, Tobias & etc who are Divergent are a success.

I guess the Divergent is the "proof" the rest of humanity needs to believe that they can change, so that is how they can help. Also a lot of people mention that the Divergent are only a few, but we don't really know how many there are, and also we don't know that Chicago is the only experiment in the world.

Also was nobody blown away by the Edith Prior thing!!!! I think she was already a Divergent so that is how Tris is one (being her descendant, I think she is Tris's grandmother)

IT WAS AWESOME!

Rebecca wrote: "Codee wrote: "I have an interesting theory... what if, to "cure" humanity, the government of the real world is planning to put everyone under a simulation? That way they could stop the violence th..."
I think she was called a 2nd generation Divergent because her mother was one too... I guess Edith Prior could be one too, but since no one knew that Tris's mother was Divergent, the computer would probably somehow know if Edith was one too... Who knows?

ℂᖺᗩᖇᒪἷᙓ ❀Gale❀ wrote: "IT WAS AWESOME!"

WHAT YOU SAID!

Yes!

Hi all Newbie here. Wandering if MAYBE Peter is Tobias' brother?(Evelyn 's exiled to hide pregnancy?) Also I have no doubt Edith is Natslies Dauntless Leader Mother who told her to leave.
As for outside the fence I have no clue on my Third reread now.

Artemis wrote: "I thought the book could have been better,as I thought Tris and Tobias's relationship kind of went down. Ending was superb,of course.
Hey all,also,we should make a discussion based on what fa..."
Love it! I was picked for Erudite, and I'd love to be evil ;)