Chaos Reading discussion

Any ideas as to how we should manage the group's bookshelves? What would be helpful?
Shelves based on genre/tags like "horror-zombies" or "asian-fiction"?
Shelves based on books a lot of us liked?
Shelves for certain members to recommend their favourite reads?

What do we think?

All of the above!! It would be awesome to have a list of the group's top picks, by genre or tag. So if I fancy reading some asian fiction, I can go to the shelf and see what has been recommended as a must-read in that category. Is that possible?

I'm sure it can be arranged. Should I just open the shelves to everyone, or should we do a poll, or start a thread for each genre (or tag) people want to explore?

I say lets go with the thread idea

I agree, lets start with the threads. It would be fun eventually to do some polls, too, and we could vote on which books belong in the bookshelves.

Okay. What I can do is start threads for the first few shelves based on tag/genre. People can post to the thread the books they would recommend for each shelf. I think we should let the threads run for a good long while, since we're only just starting out.

Once we see how many suggestions we get, we can look at how much/little we need to thin the herd. Maybe we can do that bit as a poll for each shelf, or based on a minimum average rating, minimum number of votes or whatever.

In the meantime, which shelves to we want to start with?

Based on the sorts of books we've been talking about so far, I thought of the following. Are any of these useful?

*fiction-scifi -space-tech-old skool
*fiction-hardboiled-crime-noir-mystery
*fiction-classics
*fiction-weird-surreal-bizarro
*non fiction-cookbooks-quirky

What else? I'm totally just brainstorming with the tags, so feel free to suggest better wording...

Those are a good start. Also you probably want a thread covering Post-Apocalyptic and Dystopian. Have a feeling those are popular genres with a bunch of people in this group.

Yeah, good call. I wouldn't mind having one for each actually.

I'm guessing there could be a few transgressive fiction fans in this group too... could be an interesting shelf/thread.

Gertie wrote: "I'm guessing there could be a few transgressive fiction fans in this group too... could be an interesting shelf/thread."

I've always kind of wondered about that label. What books are you thinking of? It might help me wrap my head around it a bit.

Just based on the other thread, I'm thinking we really need a "Puerile" shelf. Or is that also "transgressive"?

I think puerile is more about childishness and immaturity right? Transgressive is different - I wasn't even familiar with the term until Redroc (he is in the AW group) mentioned it. It may be too narrow of a genre for one of the shelves; but - I think a number of the books you read (and others here) might fit that description. I'll just paste in Wiki info since it will make more sense than I will.

"... focuses on characters who feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and who break free of those confines in unusual and/or illicit ways. ...protagonists of transgressional fiction may seem mentally ill, anti-social, or nihilistic. The genre deals extensively with taboo subject matters..."

Sample books: Fight Club A Clockwork Orange American Psycho and even... Slaughterhouse-Five.

I was tempted to say that under that definition isn't all fiction "transgressive" to an extent. Then I realized that, no, that's just the only fiction I like :-) Other fiction exists, but who wants to read about people who are content with their lot in life?

Exactly, Derek. EXACTLY!

I have to admit, the term "transgressive" makes me bridle a bit. It just seems rife with certain value judgements. I think too that if you're going out of your way to go against a society's norms, then it's just the same as conforming - either way you're letting society dictate what you do.

I used "transgressive" as one of the group tags, since I suspected some of the books that typically are categorised that way would be of interest, but I'm not a fan of the term.

At the same time, a lot of us are into books that include some element of being outside the mainstream (for want of a better term). Maybe we could just keep going along the lines of "tags", and have a shelf that covers:

fiction-weird-bizarro-transgressive-quirky-surreal

um - fiction > humor?

or, for our UK friends

fiction > humour?

Sounds good. Will add that one.

That'd be "Humour" for the non-US friends :)

Humour for those who don't speak American/Canadian. Camadian I believe is the word.

Ahhh I forgot that the other residents of both North and South American consider us (the United States) to be very arrogant for calling ourselves Americans, as if we have exclusive rights to that title.And, to be fair, they do have a point. You can argue that they are also Americans since they also live in the Americas.

In the Spanish and Portugese speaking parts of the Americas they either call us North Americans or United Statsians. Or at least that is what I've been told.

And that concludes todays lesson in cultural awareness/political correctness.

Checkman wrote: "Ahhh I forgot that the other residents of both North and South American consider us (the United States) to be very arrogant for calling ourselves Americans, as if we have exclusive rights to that title.And, to be fair, they do have a point."

No, we don't. I'm not American, don't ever want to be considered American, and resent being mistaken for one (of course, since I'm Canadian, I apologize for it when it happens...). There is no place called "America", unless it's the United States of... I'm North American.

(and officially, there's a "u" in "humour" in Canadian - I'm muchly on the fence about it)

Derek wrote: "No, we don't. I'm not American, don't ever want to be considered American, and resent being mistaken for one (of course, since I'm Canadian, I apologize for it when it happens...). There is no place called "America", unless it's the United States of... I'm North American."

I was waiting for that to happen :)

I went to college (Boise State University. Boise, Idaho) with several Canadians (mostly on athletic scholarships) who were from British Colombia and a couple of the other more western provinces. They used to make jokes about the differences in dialect and how the Canadians (I'm assuming they were not talking about the French speaking Canadians by the way) in the east spoke differently from the the ones in the west. In particular I remember them talking about that whole "ou" sound. How Eastern Canadians don't say "out" but "oot" - or something like that. Well anyway I'm relying on twenty-two year old memories so I'm sure it's not perfect.

As far as the American thing goes I actually have been told that by various nationals from Mexico, a couple Spanish langauge teachers, Honduras, Brazil and one very pretty woman from Peru who took great offense at U.S. citizens referring to themselves as Americans. Great offense. I was just a young twenty year old kid and I found myself deaing with a beautiful and pissed off woman because I referred to myself as an American. It made an impression.

So I just figured that was the general (over-all) attitude. I wasn't actually referring to Canadians. Hope I didn't offend you. Not my intention.

Ruby wrote: "Derek wrote: "No, we don't. I'm not American, don't ever want to be considered American, and resent being mistaken for one (of course, since I'm Canadian, I apologize for it when it happens...). Th..."

I know plenty of angry Central & South Americans who insist that they are in fact "Americans". There was a big "Somos Americanos" campaign a decade or so back pushing for the reconceptualization of "American" identity to include everyone who lives in the "Americas".

However, I pointed out then and still maintain that, since the United States of America is the only nation IN the Americas with "America" in its name -- much the same way we can forgive people for saying "Britain" when they mean "Great Britain" and "Russia" when they mean "Russian Federation" and "China" when they mean "People's Republic of China", I think we can forgive Americans (and others!) for shortening the rather unwieldy title of the "US of A" to simply "America".

Ruby wrote: "I was waiting for that to happen :)"

Uh-oh. Am I repeating my rants?

Checkman wrote: " In particular I remember them talking about that whole "ou" sound. How Eastern Canadians don't say "out" but "oot" - or something like that."

afaik, the only people who ever say that about Canadians are Americans. I've never heard any Canadian say "oot and aboot".

Yeah, I'm sure there are people that have a problem with Americans calling themselves Americans, but you said "the other residents" and it's not true of most Canadians (though I do hear people complain - just not many - and I'll bet most of those can be heard calling you Americans from time to time).


Ian wrote: 'much the same way we can forgive people for saying "Britain" when they mean "Great Britain" and "Russia" when they mean "Russian Federation" and "China" when they mean "People's Republic of China"'

Well, now, it's the "United Kingdoms of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and there is no "not-Great" Britain, so they're synonymous. "China" is synonymous with People's Republic of... in the eyes of the government of the PRC. Obviously not, to many Taiwanese - but that's a distinctly political statement.

I honestly don't understand a 'reconceptualization of America', as there never was a concept of the two continents being a single place named "America". It makes as much sense as asking the Central African Republic or South Africa to change their names because there are other countries in Central or South Africa.

Uh-oh. Am I repeating my rants?

I don't know are you? I don't recall having had an exchange with you in the past. Do other posters and contributors inadvertently push your buttons? Like I wrote in my previous post it isn't my intention to do so. What was the issue with "the other residents". I was including Canada in that. I wasn't including your country as being part of the United States.

afaik, the only people who ever say that about Canadians are Americans. I've never heard any Canadian say "oot and aboot".

Well be that as it may it was from my then fellow students (who were Canadians) that I first heard about the "oo" thing.

When Canadian Bacon came out in 95 I cracked up during the scene when the Americans tell the Canadians that they have taken "prisoner" that they can make them say the letter O. It took me back to college.

Ian wrote: "Ruby wrote: "Derek wrote: "No, we don't. I'm not American, don't ever want to be considered American, and resent being mistaken for one (of course, since I'm Canadian, I apologize for it when it ha..."

Thank you. What an intelligent and rational point of view.

No big deal Checkman - Derek often corrects people. :-P

I went to college with a guy who's last name was House, only I was initially a little baffled since he pronounced it as Hoose. Turns out he was Canadian, no doubt he thought the way I pronounced his name sounded odd too.

We all talk funny from somebody's perspective :)

When I was on Thursday Island, I did try to learn some of the language before I left, but Torres Strait Islands Creole sounds so much like English, I thought I'd be okay. My second day there, I met an old man at the ferry stop who was quite obviously drunk, and getting more so by the minute. It was my first conversation with a local without someone translating. It was a very awkward conversation, particularly since he kept telling me that he'd been "pissing a lot today". I figured, fair enough. He had been drinking quite a bit, and it's bound to come out the other end sooner or later. Wasn't until the next day I found out that "p"s and "f"s are interchanged between the two languages. Turns out he'd been telling me all about the FISHING he'd been doing.
Which does explain why he was sitting in a dinghy at the time...

What I took to be slurred English was actually a different language I didn't understand. Okay, not entirely relevant, but I wanted to reboot the thread a bit :)

Checkman wrote: "Uh-oh. Am I repeating my rants?

I don't know are you? I don't recall having had an exchange with you in the past. Do other posters and contributors inadvertently push your buttons? Like I wrote in..."

Hilarious. As one of those West Coast Canadian, I made fun of the east coast "oot and aboot" until I was working with a cameraman for the Discovery channel. Three minutes after we were introduced he said, "What part of Vancouver are you from?" I cocked my head and asked how he knew. He said ( and I really am quoting here), "You said 'out' funny and you sound a bit like you come from LA." I've since used the Canadian "ou" diphthong as an example of sensation vs perception in my lectures.

What's cool is that Canadians can't hear the difference. It's a language canalization thing that happens by the time we're a year old. There are other fun examples like r and l in Japanese speakers, and two interesting b sounds in Hindi that I can't distinguish either.

Yeah, your sensitivity to (and ability to replicate) certain phonemes seems to diminish exponentially after you hit six months of age or so. My friends in child development & neurology are currently working on projects related to that topic.

Also, carrying on from Ruby's attempt to reboot, I have Spanish-speaking friends who say that Portuguese sounds like a drunk Italian trying to speak Spanish; my French-speaking friends say it sounds like a drunk Italian trying to speak French.

Checkman wrote: "Uh-oh. Am I repeating my rants?

I don't know are you?"

Possibly. I've been through the argument often enough. There are individual Canadians who object to Americans being called American. Not me, and very far from a majority of Canadians.

"What was the issue with "the other residents". I was including Canada in that."

That's precisely the point. "The other residents" of the Americas, do not, as a whole, object to residents of the USA being called American. A few Canadians have a concern with it, but they almost all blithely call you Americans, anyway. I've yet to hear a single Canadian try to come up with a different adjective. Perhaps the Spanish/Portuguese-speaking Americas have such terms in common use, but there isn't one in English. [Of course, in England, they'll call you "Yanks", not realizing that _that_ is offensive to some Americans, but then they call me "Yank" too...]

Anyway, I haven't been offended by anything anybody has said - I just disagree.

Meg wrote: "What's cool is that Canadians can't hear the difference. It's a language canalization thing that happens by the time we're a year old."

Yeah, except I'm English, raised in London, Cumbria, and then 30 years in Ontario (with brief stops around Canada), and living on the East coast for the last decade, so I have a different ear (and I think a pretty good one) and I really don't believe there's any significant group of Canadian English-speakers who use "oot and aboot". It's an urban myth. And it's an urban myth that has been perpetuated by Canadians. None of which is to say that we don't all "say 'out' funny", it's just that the 'oot' pronunciation is far more a product of a perceived difference than an actual artifact.

I'm a Tennessean.

I'm from Tennessee, too. So y'all excuse me if I use a few southern expressions.
Just throwing this out there.......maybe the way you hear the pronunciation from a certain region depends on the region you are from. Personally, my TN ear hears 'aboot' when I hear our northern neighbors speak.

Personally I was confused...I thought "aboot" went on "afoot". Oh well. Excuse me I'm getting some iced tea.

I have to agree with "Angela~twistedmind~" -- I hear "aboot" as well when I listen to most Canadians. In fact, I was just listening to an on-line programme and the hostess's abrupt use of "aboot" (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/..., around 2:40 where she says "think aboot it") actually startled me because of this conversation we're having. It's not only Canadians, mind you, as many USA-icans from the Northern States also say "aboot" in unguarded moments.

That said, i do think that there are subtle distinctions. Some seem to pronounce it as "aboot" while others seem to say it more as "abutt".

"ay"....or is that "ey"?

Ian wrote: "Yeah, your sensitivity to (and ability to replicate) certain phonemes seems to diminish exponentially after you hit six months of age or so. My friends in child development & neurology are currentl..."

Fun -- I've got some colleagues working on the same thing. As well as whether the concept or the word comes first. That is, do we map words on to actions in the world OR do we start with concepts (used loosely here) and map words on to those? The research is really interesting because you're basically asking 5-month-olds to "tell" you stuff about their cognition. Not a fun proposition.

'About' and 'Aboot' and I think of South Park's Terrance and Phillip. I haven't met any Canadians in my life and neither have I heard them speak. Still, I don't think it would sound that odd, eh?

Has anyone come across Singlish before? :)

A civil discussion on liguistics...I'm in heaven! So glad I joined the group!!

If I can't achieve civility I try to go for humor. :)

Rida wrote: "I'm Pakistani and in my day-to-day life, I mash up Urdu words and English words way too much. ^^ What should we call that? Urdish? (God, it sounds horrible :P) "

Not as horrible as "Ingdu"!

Meg wrote: "The research is really interesting because you're basically asking 5-month-olds to "tell" you stuff about their cognition. Not a fun proposition. "

Oh, I disagree. Cognitive testing small children in the Torres Strait was some of the most fun I've ever had. I particularly enjoyed the 3 hours I spent having a live chicken thrown at me by one little boy, who I was sure was going to break its neck. I spent half the time with a chicken under one arm (trying to save it), typing with the other hand, while the little bugger tried to put a piece of rubber hose on my finger. I think that means we're engaged now.

Rida wrote: "What the heck is Ingdu?! :D"

A less tasteful name for Urdlish.

Erm, fairly certain I clicked on a thread about bookshelf names.......

Let's go with "humour" given that that's the spelling in the majority of English speaking countries. (GB, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Jamaica, Ireland, Jersey, Canada etc)

As far as I know only the US drops 'u's in words.

I see the title of this thread and I think "Better conditions for prisoners now!"

Amy wrote: "As far as I know only the US drops 'u's in words. l..."

To us yanks it seems like others are adding the u in, not us dropping it. :-P But they did have their versions first.

*crying* you guys are funny
errr i dont really mind the type of book but please dont make it one of those 'i've got boyfriend issues' books...they're rather annoying

Gertie wrote: "To us yanks it seems like others are adding the u in, not us dropping it. :-P But they did have their versions first."

LOL. Yes, that's it. Ninety or so countries all created their own individual versions of English, and coincidentally decided to add in a "u" in all of them. That seems far more likely. :)

BTW - Yes this was originally a thread about bookshelves, but the discussion on that topic has moved on to here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

I was planning on closing this thread, but can't think of a way to do that without seeming petulant, in light of the current discussion!
i.e. Screw you guys, I'm taking my "u" and going home... :)

BETTER CONDITIONS FOR PRISONERS NOW!

hehe
All I can think of is the zombie version..
What do we want? BRRAAIINNSS
When do we want 'em? BRRAAIINNSS

Checkman wrote: "I went to college (Boise State University. Boise, Idaho) with several Canadians (mostly on athletic scholarships) who were from British Colombia and a couple of the other more western provinces. Th..."

I had the same experience in my twenties traveling in Central America. I had in my ignorance simply never considered those living in the continents of South America and North America (and yes even Canada) may consider themselves American. It was like a revelation actually. Though I still call myself American, my world view has broadened to the understanding others who do not live in the U.S. also proudly where the title. P.S. For a bit of perspective I live in Fairfax, Vermont, USA which is about 50 miles from Quebec, Canada. Many Vermonters (myself included) have a French Canadian heritage and many still have family in Quebec. I have never asked them if they considered themselves American but maybe I will at the next family reunion.

Ruby wrote: "BTW - Yes this was originally a thread about bookshelves, but the discussion on that topic has moved on to here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

I was plannin..."

Sorry, I didn't see this until after I posted a book. I will continue my prose on the thread it has been moved to.