Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

A general discussion thread for prehistory books and discussion.

*Prehistory is a term often used to describe the period before written history.

Just asking a question to see what stories people think should be included...

If prehistory means before written historical records (3400BC or earlier), what stories qualify?

What about stories from myth and legend that supposedly occurred prior to the written records? Greek Gods? Norse mythology? Ancient stories from the Middle-East, Asia as well as North and South America? What about stories passed down through oral traditions then written later? Do they qualify? How about new fiction based on or inspired by archeological evidence or retellings of ancient stories without archeological evidence but that originated and were set in pre-historic times?

What stories and books do you think should be included?

What about Edward Rutherfurd books which start pre-history and go through to modern day, such as Sarum: The Novel of England, London, Russka: The Novel of Russia

Deanne wrote: "What about Edward Rutherfurd books which start pre-history and go through to modern day, such as Sarum: The Novel of England, London, Russka: The Novel of Russia"

You could make the same point about many of Mitchner's books also:)

Were you specifically wanting to talk mythology, David?

There is this thread if that is what you are after?
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...
A lot of the questions you have posed sound more like non fiction mythology. We only recommend non fiction from time to time in here, although it is not banned from the threads. :)
If you know any fiction written about these times then feel free to add them, as long as they don't include supernatural/preternatural/paranormal type mythology as that becomes fantasy. Gods talking to humans and things like that.

A good example of the kind of books that people mention and recommend in this folder can be found in the other two threads in this folder.
The North American series, and Cave of the Clan Bear series.
I hope that answers your questions. :)

Hi Deanne,
The Rutherfurd books are a tricky one as they go up to modern day.
They aren't really a historical fiction about pre history, they are a book that includes a few chapters, or sometimes one chapter, on prehistory.
The Rutherfurd books don't often get mentioned by people in the era threads, but from time to time, if someone is looking for a book about, say, stonehenge, someone, including myself, will recommend Sarum: The Novel of England.
Or if they are looking for a book about pre history Russia, then someone may say "this book by Edward Rutherfurd includes a chapter on prehistory Russia".

The same goes for James Michener. he gets mentioned from time to time to, depending on what people are asking about.

Hi Deanne, thanks for the recommendation. Haven't read Sarum -- added it to my list.

Hi Happy, good call on the Michener.

Hi Terri, thanks for the thread recommendation. Will check it out. To answer your question, not necessarily mythology, but ancient stories in general, many of which might contain myths or have become mythologized over time. Mostly, I noticed this topic and thought to post some questions just to prompt some discussion as I am interested in the time-period in general and figured there might be folks who have encountered stories written about or inspired by the subject. Either as a topic for discussion or with regards to literature that has been written, fictional or even traditional.

Considering the many archaeological discoveries over the past decade or so that suggest much of sophisticated human culture is far older and much more widespread than previously believed, it suggests that a lot of traditional stories might also be older than previously believed. I can't imagine that it was only grunts and moaning for several hundred thousand years, though I suppose we all still do it even in this day and age, so it is possible. Whatever the case, is anyone writing about this? How old are the ancient stories really? How long were they oral traditions before they were written down at some point? Would they then qualify as prehistoric in their origins? Stuff like that. Anyway -- just trying to open some discussion and see who else is interested.

I have read the Auel books but I haven't read the North American Series.

Also, thanks for the clarification on not including stories based in myths/legends involving paranormal or spiritual type material.

Cheers. :)

One which would fit this theme is The Gift Of Stones, which is set at the very end of the Neolithic in Britain.

(My review can be found here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...)

Others, which I haven't read, would include various books by William Golding. I'll try and add some more here later, if I remember, but right now I have to run out the house and get to work!

And perhaps another for the thread.

Dance of the Tiger: A Novel of the Ice Age

I also saw this one. Not my kind of thing as it looks a little romancy. The book blurb sounds like it is historical fantasy, but a reviewer of the book says that while the description makes it sound that way, it isn't fantasy at all.

Song of the Axe

There is also one that I often see around, that I think Lee may have been going to mention, by the author who wrote Lord of the Flies, William Golding. However, the characters can communicate telepathically, so I'll post the book details in the fantasy thread.

Fantasy thread. Message 564
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

Another two interesting ones.

Daughter of Kura: A Novel


Song of the River

In deference to Terri,

I think Bernard Cornwell's

probably needs to be added to the list

Thankyou. You know I do love to see a BC mention appear in every thread.
:D

Oh yes, I am going to go with "Stonehenge".

Thanks all. If I find anything else I'll add to this.

I want to try this one first out of the ones mentioned here that I have not read....Dance of the Tiger: A Novel of the Ice Age

I can't stop myself from that one either.

The title is a bit strange...tigers during the ice age? But then it makes me think the author must have a wild imagination and I am hungry for more of that.

Aria wrote: "I can't stop myself from that one either.

The title is a bit strange...tigers during the ice age? But then it makes me think the author must have a wild imagination and I am hungry for more of that."

Sabre toothed variety, perhaps? Or maybe someone has has seen one too many of the Ice Age movies. :)

Sabre-Toothed Tigers...oh yes, that makes more sense now.

But the title does make me think of near-eastern, paranormal something.

:) But I have to add it to my list to make sure.

Margaret wrote: "Sabre toothed variety, perhaps? Or maybe someone has has seen one too many of the Ice Age movies. :)"

Yes. I haven't read it but the research should be impeccable (all be it now 35 years out of date): the author was a palaeontologist. Like The Inheritors it focuses on the demise of Neanderthals (itself published a few years prior to Dance of the Tiger). It's an area of research in which our understanding has been altering rapidly in the last few years but, nevertheless, the Golding book is on my TBR.

I did read The Gift Of Stones earlier this year, by another prize-winning British novelist (Jim Crace). Rather than the end of the Neanderthals (or should that be Neandertals? I've just been editing a paper which uses that spelling through-out, but it's not really my area) that book focuses on the end of the Neolithic. It was very, very well written but I wasn't convinced that the setting was intrinsic to the plot (my review here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...).

The only others I've read on this list are the Jean M. Auel books and Stonehenge - a book that Terri and I have unusually wildly different opinions of.

Lee wrote: " and Stonehenge - a book that Terri and I have unusually wildly different opinions of. ..."

One day I will finagle you into trying it again. See if we can't do something about this.

Isn't it pronounced Neandertal but it is spelled Neanderthal? I thought the h was semi silent. More like t-hall than tall.
Of course. :-) Not my area of expertise either.

You touched on one of the reasons I veer off fiction set in Prehistory..if the book is not written recently. Amateur though I am, I too am aware that discoveries and theories and proven theories have come on rapidly in the last few years and I always wonder...is the book dated in feel?
I would guess that Dance of the Tiger may be more believable now that Jean M. Auel books.

Terri wrote: "Isn't it pronounced Neandertal but it is spelled Neanderthal? I thought the h was semi silent. More like t-hall than tall.
Of course. :-) Not my area of expertise either.

You touched on one of ..."

Might be something to do with the author being U.S.American? I've just looked in the COD and they only list Neanderthal but note that the German region which has leant its name to the people is now spelt Neandertal. Confusing, eh? I might do a bit more editing on that one before the book is sent to the publishers.

In fairness to Auel, whatever we may feel about the quality of her prose, her research was fairly thorough and reflected a popular perception of Neanderthal cognitive capacities and social structure in archaeology in the mid-eighties. I remember when I did my first degree some poor students were instructed to read it for a presentation on archaeology in literature. The one point that always struck me as farcical was (view spoiler)[Neanderthals heads' got too big to be born due to inherited memories (hide spoiler)]. That has nothing to do with archaeological research and is just a poor understanding of both evolutionary theory and anatomy.

One book I didn't mention earlier (and I think this is another one we don't agree on but there again I think it's been nearly twenty years since I read either of them) is Sarum: The Novel of England, the first chapter of which is set in the Mesolithic and the second of which is in the Neolithic.

The first two or three chapters were very good in Sarum: The Novel of England. They were the only parts I liked. :-)

That is confusing with Neandertal. I see this explanation..

In 1901 an orthographic reform in Germany changed the spelling of Thal (valley) to Tal. The scientific names like Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis for Neanderthal man are not affected by this change, because the laws of taxonomy retain the original spelling at the time of naming. The railway station nearby still carries the name Neanderthal, because the railway was built in 1879.

I have to say. Your Auel spoiler. I don't remember this part of the book, which is no surprise as I barely remember any, but that detail you mentioned in your spoiler, makes me grimace. Not in a snob's way, but in a 'oh dear me' way. If that makes sense.

Terri wrote: "The first two or three chapters were very good in Sarum: The Novel of England. They were the only parts I liked. :-)

That is confusing with Neandertal. I see this explanation..

In 1901 an orthog..."

Yep, that makes sense. As far as I remember, she implied that that was why they died out!

As for Sarum, those are really the only two chapters that I have any memories of (maybe the War of the Five Peoples one too?) so perhaps they were better than the others.

Lee wrote: " As far as I remember, she implied that that was why they died out! ..."

Okay, now I am grimacing like a snob.

Terri wrote: "Lee wrote: " As far as I remember, she implied that that was why they died out! ..."

Okay, now I am grimacing like a snob."

That's a good look for you.

:-) Ha. i should go back to smiling before the wind changes direction.

Well, you two have definitely gone through the slog of details for me, thank you both. But you have helped me make my final decisions, which are,

"Dance of the Tiger: A Novel of the Ice Age" Bjorn Kurten,

and

"The Gift of Stones" Jim Cruce.

Wonderful. But really, these are not scientific papers showing hypotheses on theories. They are stories, after all, and a little misunderstanding or misconception will sometimes only add to the story. Note, the story alone. The fact may suffer greatly.

I am fascinated by the Neandertal and Neanderthal debate. "th" and "t" with a silent h. A linguist historian, anyone?

By the way, I have no idea what I am jibbering on about. :D

Aria wrote: "Well, you two have definitely gone through the slog of details for me, thank you both. But you have helped me make my final decisions, which are,

"Dance of the Tiger: A Novel of the Ice Age" Bjorn..."

Re: Neandertal/Neanderthal. I understand the original place of discovery of remains was Neanderthal in Germany - which I am told is pronounced Neandertal.

Yes. Neanderthal is pronounced Neandertal..or more accurately Neander-tall.
It is a place in Germany which was named after Joachim Neander.

The spelling however keeps the h, while the valley drops the h.

There is a cool looking Neanderthal Museum on the first site of Neanderthal discovery. If anyone is in travelling in Germany it looks like a great place to check out.
http://www.neanderthal.de/en/home/ind...

That sounds intriguing. I wouldn't mind looking if I ever visit Germany. Now, to convince my better half would mean maneuvering him into loving neandertals and he is more of a steampunk man. He would want to go to Berlin.

Neandertal sounds much more Germanesque (I know, that is not in the dictionary. Just don't shoot me.)

Well, I am at the library and chose Bernard Cornwell's "Stonehenge".

I have a limit on the number of books I can take out and that is my last pick of the day.

:)

I hope you like it. It can go either way with that book. I think you will either hate it or love it and I can never tell who will hate it or love it.

I really liked Stonehenge. It served as my introduction to Bernard Cornwell, which opened me to The Last Kingdom.

I gave it 5 stars. Here's my review if anyone it interested as to why.
I really connected with it. Especially the way the people in the stories interacted with their environment.
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I think I will have a review out for it before Friday.

Thank you Terri.

Terri wrote: "I gave it 5 stars. Here's my review if anyone it interested as to why.
I really connected with it. Especially the way the people in the stories interacted with their environment.
http://www.goodrea..."

I am reading "Stonehenge" too Terri, and I am close to finished. I am really liking it. Very different from what I usually read. With the exception of James Michener's books and "Sarum I have not read a lot of pre-historical novels.

I am glad you are liking it Anne. I feel it is a very underappreciated book by Bernard Cornwell.
I have no doubt that some people are simply not going to connect with it. That happens with all books, but I feel that some people don't like it because they expect it to follow the Cornwell formula.
It is different to what he usually writes and I think some people go off it when they realise it is nothing like Cornwell's other books.
As mentioned though, there will always be readers who simply don't gel with the book and dislike it or hate it. That happens with all books.

Terri wrote: "Yes. Neanderthal is pronounced Neandertal..or more accurately Neander-tall.
It is a place in Germany which was named after Joachim Neander.

The spelling however keeps the h, while the valley drop..."

I was there in 2004. Unfortunately, THE Neanderthal was away for some much needed sprucing up, so I missed him. However, the rest of the museum is worth the trip. They have translations in many languages for all of the displays.

That's fantastic D! I am glad to hear from someone who has been there!

Check out the history of the whole world interpreted according to Indian Mythology!

http://sharavega.com/lounge/40-the-se...

Hi Shara,
The Australian one...To my knowledge, the Aborigines did not worship fire.

Hi Terri,

You are right. I could find no evidence that the Aborigines worshiped fire specifically. However, on a few accounts, it was evident that they 'also' worshiped fire. One more thing to note is, the description given was supposed to be during the very first generation of men in a literal sense.

Thanks

Hi Shara,
Fire was very important to the Australian Aborigine as a tool that's for sure. They don't worship it, but it played/plays an important role in their lives as something that they congregate around, some tribes use to burn grasslands as a way of hunting and keep the grass down, and prepare meals.
Although I must mention, that not all Aborigine tribes lived on grassland. Just as many tribes lived on the coast, away from grassland, in the hills and mountains.
Technically the aborigine don't worship anything, they have legends and folklore and they respect, revere, tells stories of and mimic certain animals, but they do not worship in the sense that they kneel or give offering etc..
Fire is just something they use. Like a spear or a grinding stone.

Hi Terri,
Thanks for your comment. I see that you are from Australia and you obviously have accurate information on this and I can rely on you more than any other websites that i skimmed through. I should probably edit my article.
Thanks again

Hi Shara,
Thanks. Yes, while I am not Aboriginal by blood, I did indeed grow up in contact with their culture and learning their legends and stories. Their 'Dreamtime' involves some fascinating stories. :-)

Sarum: The Novel of England
I just joined this group and, although this is not the thread to introduce myself, I wanted to say that I am thrilled to be here and to have come across the recommendation of Sarum. I believe this is exactly what I have been looking for....to begin at the beginning. To learn history the way it works best for me. By making an emotional connection, which I believe this book is going to do. I'm so thrilled to have found this group.

Barbara wrote: "Sarum: The Novel of England
I just joined this group and, although this is not the thread to introduce myself, I wanted to say that I am thrilled to be here and to have come across the recommendati..."

Hi Barbara- I am one who loved "Sarum." Some here did not, which is not unusual for our group. We do not always agree on books as Terri will tell you.

Anne wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Sarum: The Novel of England
I just joined this group and, although this is not the thread to introduce myself, I wanted to say that I am thrilled to be here and to have come across ..."

@Anne, Taking into consideration that my "to read" list is steadily growing, I'll be sure to share my opinion sometime this year :-) Thanks for sharing and, again, I'm happy to be here.