Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

What's the difference? And what does your personal practice feel like in operation? It's interesting to read the varying definitions of different practitioners - we could post a few quotes to discuss on this thread.

I like this one by Emma Restall Orr in Living Druidry: Magical Spirituality for the Wild Soul.

"A spell is a stream of words that acts as a container, sculpted out of a situation and crafted with an intention, into which is poured a flood of energy. An incantation, it can hold an invocation of deity or spirit, or simply hold all that is needed to break through the current situation into one that is new."

IMO, a spell and a prayer are very similar in that they are both in their own way asking gods for assistance in reaching a goal and/or thanking those gods for assistance already received. Basically, they say "please" and "thank you". The only difference to me is a prayer uses only words while a spell uses words and also tools such as candles, herbs, crystals, etc. to help a person focus.

Joseph wrote: "The only difference to me is a prayer uses only words while a spell uses words and also tools such as candles, herbs, crystals, etc. to help a person focus. "

That's a good point. If you think about it though, candles are an important part of Roman Catholic ritual and prayer, as in lighting a candle for someone (or maybe something), and herbs have their counterpart in the incense burned in the censer. Then there's the chalice of wine, although (as far as I know), no sword to correspond to the athame of Wiccan practice. So many religious ceremonies are recognizable as rites (with substances changed), yet to call any part of them a magic spell would almost certainly cause offense.

Joseph wrote:IMO, a spell and a prayer are very similar in that they are both in their own way asking gods for assistance in reaching a goal and/or thanking those gods for assistance already received. Basically, they say "please" and "thank you".

The idea of saying "please" and "thank you" feels right and good to me.

Jaq wrote: "I don't always work with gods in spells, but if I do some prayer to the deity in question is included as part of the spell."

Maybe that's the difference - a prayer needs a god to address and can be part of a spell, yet a spell can be a working that doesn't involve a god.

Emma Restall Orr goes on to say:

We don't beseech the gods to grant us favours: this is a practice that requires a belief in listening, caring and omnipresent deities. Where a magickal spell draws the required power into the soul of the practitioner, a petitionary prayer requests that the deity manifest the change that we desire, but in both cases it is very much our self that makes the decision.

A prayer is a request/dialogue with a deity - requiring assistance, offering thanks, or a dialogue. Prayers are words that require the action of an "other".

A spell is an action undertaken by an individual, either with, but often without the involvement of a deity. A spell requires the manipulation of the otherworld to manifest a change in the material, i.e. it is a practice, an exercise, an art.

There are many of us that do not require the inclusion of deity, or other supernatural beings in our work.

A spell might actually work...

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "A spell might actually work..."

I thought the subject had some potential to get a discussion going but...

For me the difference between the two is a cuspy sort of area, and I wondered if others had similar feelings. But maybe not.

For me, spells & prayers are the same.

That's good to hear, Willa. I was thinking also that one difference between the two may be to do with the emotion involved.

I was raised as a pagan/witch but already had virgin of guadalupe because of being raised on the mexican border. I became a christin in my 50's. I think I just added the good christ to my pantheon. I always petition help from a god or goddess during my spells, so to me prayers are the same as spells.

Willa, that's such an interesting and unusual history.

Willa wrote: I think I just added the good christ to my pantheon.

And why not, say I, although some maybe wouldn't. I think it's a rather lovely idea.

I saw a programme a while ago in which the presenter said that Christ would be considered a Jewish prophet if a new religion hadn't been created around him.

I believe that is true, John Shelby Spong has written some awesome books about the real Jesus.

As far as I'm concerned a spell is more of a command, whereas a prayer is either a request, or could simply just be sort of fan mail.

Would you consider that a command directed at a specific deity, more generally (to unnamed forces), or to one's 'self'? Or variable depending on the situation?

I think if you're involving a deity, it's best to avoid commands. Ghosts and demons, and other minor elementals are different though.

They say you can invoke angels or conjure demons, but the result of conjuring angels or invoking demons would be undesirable.

I consider a spell when you command insentient substances to form, or unform themselves a certain way.

For me a prayer is simply reverence of the sacred, and no particular result is required, although I accept that some people use prayer to ask for certain things, or situations.

This is from Caitlin Matthews' The Celtic Spirit: Daily Meditations for the Turning Year.

When our words are combined with strong intentions, we make a magic that we cannot begin to realize. Intentions are the pathways of desire, and when words travel along them, they go as spirit messengers to their source. If we frame closely worded requests with a particular end in sight, we cease to become pray-ers and become sorcerers instead.

Aaron wrote: "As far as I'm concerned a spell is more of a command, whereas a prayer is either a request, or could simply just be sort of fan mail."

Nicely put :)

How I feel about it is that a spell is some kind of a... "godlike" (I guess I lack a better word) action in hands of a mortal. Isn't it? Channeling your energy to alter the reality is definitely something special. And a prayer? As I already mentioned, I'm absolutely not the "god(s) exist(s)" kind. I just don't like the idea of a superior being (or beings, I'm being very general here) that is somehow in charge of certain things and areas and needs to be asked - if not begged - for intervention, for a gift, for anything. And a prayer is unconditionally attached to the god matter for me. Yet maybe I pray while admiring the power, the creation and the infinity of Nature, and I just don't know it, because I don't call it so. I don't believe there's anything after death for me, I don't believe anyone or anything is guarding me, I know what I see, and I see great works of extremely complex Nature. The rule I observed and follow towards this world (not people, I don't believe we still deserve as a race to be called a part of it) is that you will get what you give. If what you give is love and the will to unite, it's what you'll get back.

But I don't quite expect the trees to hug me back, tho.

can i request people to do spells/prayers for me here???

I do a bit of both. I am very open minded with my spirituality. I find prayers work to a degree sometimes but, as it has been pointed out, they are a request and my spells never fail.

What do you need help with, Julia?

im just really stressed out because the school year is approaching but my aunt and uncle might be selling the house, and i dont think i can handle moving 3 times in less than a year. also if i move then i wont graduate next year because the school system where we would be moving to has an extra year. so i guess just telling the universe that steering people clear of any of our open houses sounds good.......

also that i get a job to save up during the year because i want to move out at the end of june 2015. i have a severe anxiety disorder and it doesnt help when im trying to get a job because i have panic attacks just thinking about it so it stops me from applying.

im super stressed about all of this and its taking a toll on how im feeling. im getting exponentially more and more tired each day. i just want to sit down and cry but the tears wont come. i just cant handle moving again. i have finally found a place where i feel i belong in school and with friends and a loving boyfriend who wants me to move in with him at the end of june 2015, but my aunt and uncle wont wait at least one more year for me. so i guess its up to the universe now

any help would be appreciated

Can't you do an extra year of schooling at the new place and then move back to your boyfriend's area? If your anxiety about work and an extra year at school is that bad, perhaps you would benefit from some counselling. I do feel for you and am sorry you are panicking. I remember my kids going through stress a couple of years ago with their education, especially when we had to move but it worked out well in the end. I did some spells for my kids during their schooling and it worked out fine.Don't you like to do spells for yourself? I know the 'be careful what you wish for - threefold' thing, but I have done it a couple of times and it is safe as long as you aren't being mega-selfish - and I don't think you are to be honest. I'm not sure I know enough about you to do a spell, but I will try if you want.

Catherine wrote: "Can't you do an extra year of schooling at the new place and then move back to your boyfriend's area? If your anxiety about work and an extra year at school is that bad, perhaps you would benefit f..."

i dont do spells at this point because i dont have the oppurtunities to; the aunt and uncle i live with would probably be creeped out and i dont know enough about spells to do one without messing one up

i already did counselling, and i am on medication.

i could, yes, but the emotional strain of moving yet again, having to make new friends yet again, and being so far from the people that i love could cause me to snap again. ive snapped before, and im actually so stressed i almost gave in to my urge to self harm again
:(

i guess all you need to know is that my name is julia, i need to stay in my current city and at my current school, get a job this year to save up, and to move in with my boyfriend when i graduate in june 2015

im really trying not to be selfish or anything, and honestly moving is not a necessity for my aunt and uncle; they have great paying jobs where they are now, moving is more of a convenience thing for them

Sometimes it's almost impossible to change peoples minds about moving etc. It might entail some sort of miracle. Even with spells you may have to compromise.You don't have to do anything dramatic to cast a spell. Just light an appropriately coloured candle which is compatible with your particular wish (easy to google) and a small poem, prayer type thing. It's better if it comes from your own heart. But never divulge it or it won't work.

I will send prayers your way Julia.

I will add that I think life presents us with challenges, whether we like them--or think we are ready for them--or not. And with the medication, if it's an anti depressant, it can make the situation worse, not better--at least in the short term... You are probably already aware of this though. (I chose not to take them for this reason.) I would also strenuously urge you not to give into self harm! Not only is it a violent act of aggression against yourself ('first do no harm' applies to yourself too!) but it will also enable others to gain control of you, should they wish, by using it as an example of mental instability. Your life is too precious to allow this.

Is there some way of being billeted with another family for the rest of the school year? Can your therapist help with ideas to achieve this?

Sending light and love. Blessings be. xx

Hope you are feeling better today, Julia. Positive thoughts, prayers and blessings sent xx

yeah, im 9 months self harm free, so im trying to keep it up. everytime i get the urge to hurt myself, i think about my soulmate/boyfriend ( *sigh* ) and i listen to music. im so grateful that everyone on here is so supportive

♥★Julia wrote: "thank you to everyone who is praying for this to happen for me!
im going to be talking to my doctor about my medication, now that people have mentioned that it could be making things worse.
yeah, i..."

I almost started a course of the antidepressants this year. My pharmacist warned me of the side effects and the fact that I couldn't stop taking them immediately, even if I felt suddenly suicidal (one of the side effects). Scared the crap out of me. I'm glad you are seeing your doctor about them.

The move does seem insensitive on your A &U's behalf, considering that it adds an extra year to your schooling, and separates you from your friends and boyfriend. I hope they do reconsider!

Brilliant about the nine months. The music and thinking about something wonderful (like your relationship) sounds great. A friend of mine also reminded me to make sure I took enough vitamin B too, and that sunshine is vastly underrated as an anti depressant.

Also good to note that astrologically this year has been traumatic and trying. Personally I've found it unbelievably so. It's almost ridiculous in regards to dramatic events. Keep strong Julia. The year is supposed to get better in the second half!

xxg

It's brilliant that you've kept strong for eight months, Julia - hang in there - prayers and good thoughts coming your way. And as well as the other tips for strength and feelings of well-being, walking, especially somewhere green or by water, is good too.

Little wrote: "My pharmacist warned me of the side effects and the fact that I couldn't stop taking them immediately, even if I felt suddenly suicidal (one of the side effects)."

I'm just taking a moment to recover from the genius of modern medicine. One of the side effects of taking anti-depressants is suicidal feelings?

Aaron wrote: "Little wrote: "My pharmacist warned me of the side effects and the fact that I couldn't stop taking them immediately, even if I felt suddenly suicidal (one of the side effects)."

I'm just taking a..."

Ironically yes. Just what a depressed person needs....:/ And you can't just stop taking them either, you have to gradually reduce the dose under doctor's orders.(I wasn't going to risk it, and anyway I realised I wasn't actually depressed, but anxious--back to back panic attacks.)

Chamomile tea and walking helped (as Nell pointed out :)) and I also took Valerian tablets to help me sleep at night. The modern medicine options were fraught with side effects and complications. And unlike Julia, I was able to threaten to phone the police to have my ex physically removed, and now do low contact with him only. That helps more than anything.

Best to all. Stay strong Julia. One day you will be free. xx

You know my prayers are with you Julia.


But yes, being on these meds ain't fun. I'm on antidepressants for maybe 6 years? And still can't be witout them, and probably for a long time still won't be able to. Eventhough I'm better now. It's just too risky now. I'm clean from cutting only for four months.

Amy Victoria's girlfriend ❤ wrote: "You know my prayers are with you Julia.


But yes, being on these meds ain't fun. I'm on antidepressants for maybe 6 years? And still can't be witout them, and probably for a long time still won't ..."

my prayers are with you too
while four months only seems like a short amount of time, it will grow into eight months and then twelve months super fast! just keep strong, i know you can do it

Nell wrote: "It's brilliant that you've kept strong for eight months, Julia - hang in there - prayers and good thoughts coming your way. And as well as the other tips for strength and feelings of well-being, wa..."

thanks

Little wrote: "♥★Julia wrote: "thank you to everyone who is praying for this to happen for me!
im going to be talking to my doctor about my medication, now that people have mentioned that it could be making thing..."

yeah i just keep praying and wishing really hard that nobody buys the house. will they take it off the market themselves? no. so now its up to the universe to try to work things out, i guess

Little wrote: "♥★Julia wrote: "thank you to everyone who is praying for this to happen for me!
im going to be talking to my doctor about my medication, now that people have mentioned that it could be making thing..."

thanks for all of the advice

xxxxxxxx

♥★Julia wrote: "Little wrote: "♥★Julia wrote: "thank you to everyone who is praying for this to happen for me!
im going to be talking to my doctor about my medication, now that people have mentioned that it could ..."

A pleasure. Hope I didn't sound too preachy! Best to you Julia.

thank you

Hello everyone I did a spell and I've been praying that certain people stop hurting me and it's not helping in fact things have gotten worse. Any suggestions?

How did you word the spell? If you word it "let these people stop hurting me," the result tends to be hurt, because negatives like "stop" or "don't" have no effect. You want to try something to make them kinder, or to attract kind protective people to you.

Aaron wrote: "How did you word the spell? If you word it "let these people stop hurting me," the result tends to be hurt, because negatives like "stop" or "don't" have no effect. You want to try something to mak..."

I made sure to use positive words because I'd read about exactly that before...but things have just become more and more rotten

Brian wrote: "Magic is not a crutch. What are you doing on the physical plane to cause change? Magic is most effective when used to further efforts than span across both planes."

I'm trying to make sure I don't cause conflict of any sort with these people but even if I just say how I feel about something they get angry at me and call me names and invalidate everything I say so I'm just trying to lighten up the energy. I'm trying things on the physical plane but I turned to the magic plane because no matter what I did or didn't say it wasn't helping

♥★Julia wrote: "Brian wrote: "Magic is not a crutch. What are you doing on the physical plane to cause change? Magic is most effective when used to further efforts than span across both planes."

I'm trying to mak..."

I've been dealing with this type of scenario too Julia. I no longer feel that the other party is open to change of any sort. His damage is far too ingrained. In fact the damage is probably hard wired, with brain areas affected. My extensive readings have lead me to believe that this is the case with a certain percentage of the populace. It is pointless. While I'm not suggesting that this is the case with those you are dealing with, I will tell you how I am going about my interactions with this other party. (And my interactions are unfortunately necessary, due to the fact that that my children are involved). Other than enlisting the aid of a lawyer (which I understand doesn't apply to you) and going low contact (which again I understand you cannot do) I have called upon my ancestors to aid me and to grant me the strength to deal with it. (My Viking ancestors in particular.) I have also sent prayers to the gods, to also aid me in my my strength and in pursuit of honour. In regard to magic I make sure that I am shielded in all my interactions.

I understand you are stuck. It's like a prison. But your sentence is limited. You will break free. Grow strong. So strong that not only they can't get to you, but others that wish to control and manipulate you later in life, will not be able to either. This was my mistake. I didn't. This scenario now may be helping you to avoid later ones that would have otherwise proved to be far more damaging. You may not be able to change them (in fact trying to change others, either through magic or otherwise is doomed to failure) but you can change yourself, channel Boadicea, and find out, to your joy, that they stand bugger all chance of manipulating and controlling you. Best of luck! xg.

Little wrote: "♥★Julia wrote: "Brian wrote: "Magic is not a crutch. What are you doing on the physical plane to cause change? Magic is most effective when used to further efforts than span across both planes."

I..."
Thank you! It means a lot that you all care.

♥★Julia wrote: "im just really stressed out because the school year is approaching but my aunt and uncle might be selling the house, and i dont think i can handle moving 3 times in less than a year. also if i move..."
Julia, if you are in the US, your health insurance will now cover medical costs of your severe anxiety. You really must talk to your doctor about this. You do not need to suffer so. There is help for anxiety. Part of magical work is doing all that is mundanely possible to solve the problem. Do go to the doctor. We live in a stressful world and there is medical help. Blessed be.

Little wrote: "♥★Julia wrote: "thank you to everyone who is praying for this to happen for me!
im going to be talking to my doctor about my medication, now that people have mentioned that it could be making thing..."

I didn't see till after I posted that you are seeing a doctor. Yes, some medications are dangerous, but some are not. Also, with those who are still growing, the effects of the medications are not the same as with adults. Talk to the doctor about any concerns you have about any of the medications. Be sure to report if they are not working or any sort of side effect. Also find someone to do talk therapy with. Go to an adult you trust and ask them for help. There may be resources available to you that the adult can get you in contact with.

I live in Canada
also my situation and anxiety has just taken a turn for the worse...my uncle has threatened to kick me out

♥★Julia wrote: "I live in Canada
also my situation and anxiety has just taken a turn for the worse...my uncle has threatened to kick me out"

First off, it's great you are keeping yourself from hurting yourself. You might want to try talking to a teen crisis center. Teen Crisis centers keep list of organizations that help with problems facing teens.

You have been really brave so far. Be a little more brave and call. The likelihood is a good crisis center can help you. I found this one on the web. Check for others.

http://www.kidshelpphone.ca/teens/hom...

Blessed be