Pulp Fiction discussion

I recently read a western for the first time but it was a Gothic-Western - The Hawkline Monster - and it didn't conform to my expectations of soapy/serial TV westerns at all. I'm a novice on this subject, I've barely even watched any Western movies.

I was hoping some of you fine fellows might be able to recommend a western genre equivalent of Chandler or Thompson. I reckon I'd prefer the type with an anti-hero or where the black hats defeat the white hats, that real typical noir sensibility.

I guess it also becomes a question of is there even such a thing as a noir western? Isn't the point of a noir the location? The dark, cold, lonely streets vs the bright sun of the desert?

In cinematic terms I've seen High Noon and Welcome to Hard Times (I've just realised this is actually a book and therefore have the first recommendation!) mentioned but being an absolute novice with Westerns I'm unable to judge for myself.

Try some of Elmore Leonard's. FYI, the film adaptation of his Hombre is fantastic. I'd have to call it noir-western.

I knew he used to write westerns but i've had no clue whether they were generic nonsense or what. I'll certainly keep an eye out for both media formats. Nice one David.

David wrote: "Try some of Elmore Leonard's. FYI, the film adaptation of his Hombre is fantastic. I'd have to call it noir-western."

That would have been my first recommendation, too. He also wrote a short story book of westerns that was very good.

Try Pop. 1280 by Jim Thompson, kind of a western, the story of a psychotic sheriff. Classic Noir pulp with a Wild West feel.

If you can find them, the Leo Guild novels by Ed Gorman are fairly hard boiled if not noir. At least the one I read was. They aren't the easiest books in the world to find though.

As far as movies, Unforgiven is a pretty noir western, and just a damned fine movie overall.

Actually, No Country for Old Men is basically a noir western set in the 1980's

Same with Red Rock West, Lone Star, U-Turn and Blood Simple.

Some really good noir westerns I can recommend are, .44 by H.A. DeRosso (published in 1953 but reprinted by Leisure books), DESPERADO and it's sequel NOOSE FOR A DESPERADO by Clifton Adams (Gold Medal Books, early '50's and out there in used stores), THE CAGE by Talmage Powell (1969). Also checkout websites Pulp Serenade and VinPulp for more hardboiled/noir westers. I've been getting into a number of westerns lately and have read some good ones. But top pick lately is .44 by DeRosso. If you find it used, get it.

Tom - I imagined Pop. 1280 would be if I ever find it, I saw the French film adaptation and enjoyed it. They mve it to a French colony in Africa.

Ed - I'll keep an eye out for him, infact I'm probably going book shopping today. The places I go generally have poor abandoned excuses for western sections so I may get lucky.

L.H. - Funnily enough I was talking about Lone Star and U-Turn yesterday. I remember Lone Star having a slightly comic tone and U-Turn borders on the surreal and in my opinion Oliver Stone's best film.

Kurt - You've come up with the goods I see. I'm going to have to put together a new evernote to keep these recommendations in I think. Thanks also for those websites.

Tfitoby wrote: "I knew he used to write westerns but i've had no clue whether they were generic nonsense or what. I'll certainly keep an eye out for both media formats. Nice one David."

Tom wrote: "Try Pop. 1280 by Jim Thompson, kind of a western, the story of a psychotic sheriff. Classic Noir pulp with a Wild West feel."

Elmore Leonard is a modern master of western novels is just they are earlier in his career and people know him today more for his noir novels. Actually Hombre is waiting for me in the bookstore. I have read his western short stories that he sold to mags when he became a writer. His western collections are of full of hardcore noir like stories,characters. I prefer him to many of early american western authors. He is better writer than most writers in western or crime ficiton.

Perhaps I should have bought Three-Ten to Yuma and Other Stories today after all.

Tfitoby wrote: "Perhaps I should have bought Three-Ten to Yuma and Other Stories today after all."

You should but there is a Complete Western collections of his that is wonderful and much more eh...complete.

I hope his novels match that collection.

Tfitoby wrote: "Perhaps I should have bought Three-Ten to Yuma and Other Stories today after all."

That's one of the short stories in Elmore's book of short western stories, too. My review of it is here:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I see it was an abridged audio version that I reviewed. Still good. I think they cut stories rather than edited them.

Is there something more fake than abridged short story? Whats next i wonder :P

The story is very short compared to others of his i read.

David wrote: "Try some of Elmore Leonard's. FYI, the film adaptation of his Hombre is fantastic. I'd have to call it noir-western."

If you want to see a truly noir western check out Pursued with Robert Mitchum. Ramrod with Joel McCrea is also good.

Elmore Leonard's westerns are pretty good. I especially like Valdez Is Coming.

I also like the western novels of Luke Short and Elmer Kelton, but they wrote a ton, so it's kind of a crap shoot.

If you only read one western in your life, I'd recommend Lonesome Dove. The TV miniseries is overrated, IMO.

Adam I keep picking up the McMurtry book but it's both massive (nearly 1000 pages) and seems to be a love story/family saga type. I just want the existential story of a mean SOB, Detour but with black hats.

I don't mean to be offensive towards Americans as from what I can tell they're all extremely patriotic BUT (famous last words?) I don't care about American history, the taming of the west, what it means to be an American etc. The thing is, I'm not American and I don't even care about the taming of Australia so America has no chance with me.

Tfitoby wrote: "Adam I keep picking up the McMurtry book but it's both massive (nearly 1000 pages) and seems to be a love story/family saga type. I just want the existential story of a mean SOB, Detour but with bl..."

What? You mean you guys don't live and breathe American history down there? I'm shocked!

But at least y'all remember the Alamo, right?

Lonesome Dove is long enough to encompass a lot of things, but one thing it is emphatically not is a family saga. It doesn't even take place over a really long period of time. I think it's a great story with great characters, but if you're just looking for Detour w/ black hats it's not going to fit the bill.

David wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "Adam I keep picking up the McMurtry book but it's both massive (nearly 1000 pages) and seems to be a love story/family saga type. I just want the existential story of a mean SOB, De..."

I do hope that was sarcasm David!

Adam wrote: "Lonesome Dove is long enough to encompass a lot of things, but one thing it is emphatically not is a family saga. It doesn't even take place over a really long period of time. I think it's a great ..."

I will read Lonesome Dove just because many of my Goodreads friends rate it highly. You,D_Davis, Edward E etc

I dont mind family sagas as long as its good historical,western. I find history very interesting even the american one of old west.

I'll always remember the river crossing scene in "Lonesome Dove", both the book & the movie. Absolutely horrifying.

Tfitoby wrote: "I knew he used to write westerns but i've had no clue whether they were generic nonsense or what. I'll certainly keep an eye out for both media formats. Nice one David."

There is a collection of his western short stories called

"The Complete Western Stories of Elmore Leonard"
You can get it at a bargain price... it includes "3:10 to Yuma" and plenty of awesome, very gritty stories.

Leonard is the reason that I've come around to reading westerns.

And, I'm Canadian, and, like you, don't really have any interest in American history...

Jason wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "I knew he used to write westerns but i've had no clue whether they were generic nonsense or what. I'll certainly keep an eye out for both media formats. Nice one David."

There is a..."

Heh Jason Leonard is the only reason i started reading westerns too. I liked western films always but didnt see much in it as lit genre.

I think it's kind of funny that anyone would be leery of westerns because they don't have any interest in American history, since about the last thing you'll learn from 99% of westerns is any actual American history.

Tfitoby, you mentioned Welcome to Hard Times in your first post. E.L. Doctorow is one of my favorite writers and his first novel, WTHT, would definitely fall into a Western Noir genre. I'd also recommend Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian...as dark as anything you'll ever read.

Thanks Scott. I just ordered WTHT both book and DVD. The more I read about it the more interested I got.

Now McCarthy, he's much loved (I've enjoyed a couple of his books myself) but I've noticed a lot of people dislike that he's considered new or innovative because it's all been done by others before. I've not managed to pin down exactly who it is that did it first however.

I've always heard McCarthy's pre-Border Trilogy novels compared with Faulkner's, but that's only one aspect of his styles and his themes. Everything comes from somewhere, though. To find anything totally new or totally innovative I think you need to be ignorant of all the antecedents.

Adam wrote: "I think it's kind of funny that anyone would be leery of westerns because they don't have any interest in American history, since about the last thing you'll learn from 99% of westerns is any actua..."

Yeah the westerns that cares to say something about american history, they feel more like historical story that is calm,slow and not the action,adventure people expect of westerns.

There was quite a lot of actual action & adventure in many of the accurate historical accounts. I suppose it was understated since it was factual, but much of it was incredible. Wilderness is an example. It's about John Colter and Hugh Glass. These are fictionalized accounts but firmly based on the historical facts. The book alternates chapters, starting with Colter & then switching to Glass. My review is here:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Those remind me of Richard Matheson western books, they are fictionalized accounts but very historical accurate. Journal of the Gun Years. That story killed the romance of gun fighter, felt like a historical documentary. I prefer that kind of western. Historical realism in fiction.

He wrote a book called Memoirs of Wild Bill Hickok that must be even more historical accurate.

Daniel Woodrell's The Woe To Live On(1987) might be of interest here? It was turned into a movie by Ang Lee, "Ride With The Devil". The film didn't do too well, even though it was one of the best westerns in the 90's, IMO.

This should be mentioned here: A Gold Medal original, Clifton Adams' The Desperado (1950). (edit: oh, somebody actually DID mention it already. Oh well.)

"Though a Western, this novel is a landmark of early Gold Medal noir. Set in Texas during Reconstruction, the story traces the subtle transformation of Talbert Cameron from battler of injustice to outlaw. " - George Tuttle

Tell me more about the woodrell book AND the movie. I loved winters bone but care little for ang lee

Woe to To Live by Woodrell is my only novel of his so far and it was good hardcore,cared more historical accuracy too.

Woodrell is a rated noir author of Winter's Bone, Tomato Red and co. His prose style is very noir.

it sounds interesting, i'll keep an eye out for it and add the movie to my quickflix queue.

Winter's Bone was excellent and Tomato Red only slightly less so.

I found something whilst looking for Dave Zelsterman books, he co-editted On Dangerous Ground: Stories of Western Noir

I've read everything by Woodrell except the Woe To Live On. I can recommend them all.

His Rene Shade -novels are funny and violent crime novels, in the vein of Elmore Leonard I'd say. Good entertainment value, nothing more nothing less.

But it's his later stuff what makes him such a special author. Ozark-novels Give Us A Kiss, Tomato Red, The Death of Sweet Mister and Winter's Bone are all great great novels.

TDOSW is one of the most heartbreaking stories ever. Sort of broody coming of age story, about the kid learning the rules of the fucked up world he lives in. The last chapter reminds me of great Jim Thompson and his ingenious closures.

TR is a great noir story with all the necessary noir elements: suicidal protagonist Sammy going downward spiral and not being able to do anything about it. The hook being, the protagonist is not really a criminal per se and the novel is not really about crime. Sammy is just a guy from the other side of the table. The poor side.

Woodrell's short story collection (The Outlaw Album) that came out less than a year ago is as good as any place to start to read his stuff.

(I actually wrote an article about Woodrell's Ozark-novels to this particular finnish crime/detective novel magazine, couple months ago. Too bad it's in paper only and written in my mother's tongue.)

Sade books sounded really like Leonard books to me. Winters bone is one of My fav films. I like rural noir that is so brutal honest,real. I hope Woodrells noir books are like that.

Well there are pulp/noir aspects in Jack Shaffer's classic novel Shane . The story originally appeared as a three part serial in the old men magazine Argosy in 1949. It's a classic and deserving of it's status, but there is a real 1940's pulp feeling to it at times.

I visited a used bookstore on my lunch hour the other day and picked up Desert Stake-out by Harry Whittington. Whittington is one of my favorite noir writers, and I know he wrote some westerns as well. I haven't read any of his westerns yet. Probably more hard-boiled than noir.

Checkman - interesting re Shane, with it being such a well known (and much loved) movie I had assumed it was more of a traditional story. I've gone back and forth on whether to watch it or not, removing it from my quickflix queue at least twice now.

Kurt - Just taken a look at Whittington, sounds like he put Simenon to shame with his prolific output. 7 novels in a month?!

Whittington is one of my favorite crime writers. Black Lizard reissued a handful of his books in the 90's and Stark House Press is also reissuing some. I knew he'd written some westerns but had never gotten to read any of them. Looking forward to this one by him.
Yes, he wrote like his chair was on fire. Those old writers didn't mess around!

Im enjoying Every Last Drop by Charlie Huston, its so hardcore,so cool noir story because of Joe Pitt. The best book in the series since Already Dead. Its not generic urban fantasy characters who bring down Joe Pitt ruthless self like in book 2.

Come Huston stop writing books like Sleepless, books about teenage boys and create an awesome bastard like Joe Pitt again!

OK time for an update.
Three-Ten to Yuma and Other Stories was an enjoyable collection of stories.
I tried one of the Ed Gorman western noirs Death Ground which whilst short was very enjoyable.
Welcome to Hard Times was superb.
I read the Daniel Woodrell short story Woe to Live On as part of his story collection The Outlaw Album: Stories which gives me real hope that I'll enjoy the full novel.

The adaptation of Hombre made for a truly great movie experience as far as noir westerns go.

I loved Woodrell's novel Woe to Live On. I definitely recommend it, Tfitoby.

Tfitoby wrote: "I recently read a western for the first time but it was a Gothic-Western - The Hawkline Monster - and it didn't conform to my expectations of soapy/serial TV westerns at all. I'm a novice on this s..."

Sorry, original post was in July but just had to say that I think there is something wrong with the term "Gothic-Western." Cannot imagine in my wildest imagination, a gothic-western book. Sorry, Tfitoby. Maybe I opened the wrong thread?

Cathy wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "I recently read a western for the first time but it was a Gothic-Western - The Hawkline Monster - and it didn't conform to my expectations of soapy/serial TV westerns at all. I'm a ..."

Not my description Cathy, feel free to check out my review of it for more info. An enjoyable book. There's something about those two words combined that intrigued me however.

Are you a new member? I don't remember seeing you in this group before? I should have invited you myself! Welcome

Tfitoby, it looks like you've read a lot of Leonard's books. Try Hombre at some point. I think you'll love it.

Completely off topic, but when I did the 'add book/author' & searched for 'hombre, leonard', the first book that comes up is The Invisible Man by H.G. Wells. That's just weird. Damn computers. They'll never catch on.
;-)

Yeah i had the same problem. There are quite a few little bugs like that around here.