Insurgent discussion

Can someone please explain to me why she took it upon herself to go to the Erudite headquarters? What did she REALLY think that would solve? There are multiple Divergent out there besides herself, and turning herself in would not solve ANYTHING. Once experiments were concluded, they were just going to kill her, and she would no longer be able to aid in the fight. So someone please tell me, did she go on a selfish suicide mission to escape the destruction? Or is she just plain stupid? (I prefer to assume the latter)I still can't figure out the rhyme or reason for her to blatantly betray Tobias. If I was him i'm not sure I could have forgiven her so quickly.

I think it's just because plot wise, it was the easiest way to move things along. But like you, I couldn't really work out why she thought that was a good idea.

I wanted to shake her!

Me too! I thought i was the only one! I actually yelled at the book out loud. I also agree it was easiest to 'move things along',but it was such a bad idea for Tris to go alone, and betray Tobias like she did.

i dont hate tris but i was disappointed with her in this 2nd book. I wanted her and four to be a strong unit together and they just fell apart in this one and a lot of it had to do with her lies and betrayal

Don't forget she's abnegation. She explained in the book that if she didn't do it, That was something Tobias might do, and I think she would rather go on this suicide mission than let him do it. She also mentioned she somehow expected Uriah to volunteer to go, considering what had happened to Marlene, but she realized that he wouldn't. Plus, her PTSD was clouding her judgment.

E wrote: "Don't forget she's abnegation. She explained in the book that if she didn't do it, That was something Tobias might do, and I think she would rather go on this suicide mission than let him do it. ..."

Point taken. I don't think i could actually hate her though. but still...

Adding to what E said:

I think Tris also feels incredibly guilty over shooting Will. Her world is falling apart, and she played a role in it. Unlike many of her Dauntless friends, she was fully conscious; everything she did was her decision to do, and because she's Abnegation - and suffering from PTSD - she can't just forgive herself. To a large extent, I see her reckless behavior as a form of atonement; I don't think she's suicidal or self-sacrificing as much as she thinks that her endangering herself is justified and is the way she can make up for everything that she's done.

Although it's true, I've yet to see Tris make a truly intelligent or logical decision, despite her being supposedly part Erudite. I wonder if she's dampening that side of her and letting the Dauntless and Abnegation control her. Her actions don't make any sort of Erudite sense, but they're definitely within the bounds of a personality suggested by a merger of Dauntless and Abnegation.

(I kind of like Tris. I really hated Insurgent, and Tris was one of the few things about it I could actually tolerate.)

she can be a real idiot sometimes. i feel like throwing her against the wall most of the time but i still like her, she's my fav character

Tris also realized she was the primary Divergent they wanted since she had tested for 3 factions instead of the "normal" 2 of other Divergents. She knew if they wanted to study a Divergent, she's the one to have. She was hoping (fruitlessly) that if they had her, they wouldn't go after the others so quickly. Also, everything that E and anilee said as well.

And don't forget she's 16. Reckless behavior (probably from the hormones making teens feel invincible) is characteristic of sixteen year-old behavior.

i could only think of what Peter said to her about her always getting what she wants. And she's like, you think i want to be here and he basically explained that she's on a suicide mission. But she still don't get it. It was only when she was finally staring death is the face she realized how reckless she's been.

All threats aside, my main point is that the reason why Tris blatantly made the vain decision to go to Erudite Headquarters is still unexplainable. That doesn't at all add to the "dynamic" of her character. Fictitous characters do irrational things all the time, but atleast the reason why they acted in that way is clear - whether it was a stupid reason or not. Tris in this case, did not once explain herself. And there is a major plot hole due to it. I see that it "moved things along", but not without leaving unanswered questions concerning her motivation.

As for Tobias, that's a whole other story.

Tris may be traumatized after all of these events, but at the end of the day there is no real explanation for why she went to Erudite Headquarters. There is nothing written in text to say "this is why I foolishly risked my life, knowing that even if I died, nothing good would have came from my death in the first place" She's stressed out and guilty, but if your saying she just ignored Tobias's request because she's not "thinking straight" then that's just your opinion/speculation. Tris knew what she was doing every step of the way, it was pre-meditated from the moment she lied to Tobias. And once she was placed in lock down, she started to cry because she realized there was no turning back. And this is why there is a plothole. She goes there feeling confident with herself, and then once she's captured she starts crying, as if she can't remember why she came there in the first place.

Well if she doesn't know, I don't know either.

I somewhat agree with this point. I will admit to yelling at the book at some points, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one. By the way, did anyone else get annoyed and fustrated by Fernado's death? I mean he was only in the book for 2 chapters...

JazzyJams wrote: "I somewhat agree with this point. I will admit to yelling at the book at some points, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one. By the way, did anyone else get annoyed and fustrated by Fernado's d..."

Yes. It felt like Roth brought him in for just long enough to make you interested and then killed him off to torment Tris further.

yeah Tris is kind of annoying, but I still liked the book!

I hated Tris, and I don't like this series!

Rachael wrote: "JazzyJams wrote: "I somewhat agree with this point. I will admit to yelling at the book at some points, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one. By the way, did anyone else get annoyed and fustra..."

Agreed! I hated that! I mean, he seemed to be an interesting character and he showed promise, and then BOOM! He's dead... Although I half-knew in advance since my friend likes ruining books for me...

I think part of the reason Tris is so annoying is she never really had time to grieve for, what is it now, like 10 people? Losing that many friends and family in the span of roughly 4 weeks can hurt a person.

I just don't think Tris really understood how much Tobias loved her.

She acted as if he would be fine if she had died.

I think it was for the drama, but what I don't understand was how she thought it would help the situation in any way!!

She left because it was the right thing to do! I would have done the same thing if I was in her position. She didn't want anyone else to have to die. She also knew that no one else would go. The person that I hated most in that scene was Tobias!!!! He shouldn't have gone after her. It was her choice to go. He said he was helping her by doing it. But it was probably just making it more painful for her! She had already lost everyone in her family, Caleb turned on her! And Tobias giving himself to the Erudite too just made her think that he was going to die too! I can't imagine how depressed she must have been! Thats what I think!

The Mighty Katara wrote: "I'm actually so depressed that there is a discussion going for this topic. How could anyone hate Tris?"

Hey Katara! I don't really hate Tris... I just on occasion find her annoying, but that is a good thing, because that means she's an interesting, realistic character that I'm attached to...

It's the guilt. Try to put yourself in her shoes. Plus her Abnegation kicking in.

She did it because she believed it was her only move. She felt guilty for bringing pain upon people she loved and even if it was a suicide mission she could at least feel she was doing her part in the war. I respected her decision, plus there was plenty of pages left so you already knew she didn't die.

Baylor wrote: "She did it because she believed it was her only move. She felt guilty for bringing pain upon people she loved and even if it was a suicide mission she could at least feel she was doing her part in ..."

What Baylor said... Although with books it's annoying when the main character gets in danger, especially since you know there will be another book... It kinda ruins the suspense.

yeah her plan really didn't make much sense to me. i think she was just tired and wanted to take the easy way out. pretending to be heroic was an easy way for her to give up.

I agree w/ Fran. Roth definitely showed Tris's flaws in this book, altho I think she pushed the limit when so many of us responded with disbelief at Tris's illogical behavior. I get that she's grieving and has PTSD or whatever, but sacrificing herself as a guinea pig actually makes thing WORSE for her friends as far as the whole experimental serum plot device. Did she seriously not think Tobias wouldn't come after her? Her muddled thinking may be true to life but it muddled the plot so much I had to skim or stop reading out of frustration with such soap opera.

Tris spent so much of her time in that dark place, logic just kept dancing out of reach. She and Tobias never even really get to heal from anything that's happened either, and they have some major falling outs about his father, his mother, possible rebellion etc etc. Pile all of that on her issues from Divergent and well....how she felt, and what she did (even though I myself spend moments screaming at the page, "NO NO NO") seemed every bit authentic to the character and the situation she was in. I feel (hopefully) that there will be a great upward arc for her in the next book. I don't think she'll be able to afford grieving for the next one.

Lauren wrote: "I just don't think Tris really understood how much Tobias loved her.

She acted as if he would be fine if she had died."

No i am not sure about that... Tobias didnt trust her either.. and didnt understand her love for him. He needed to be reminded if you remember. But i think that now that they have overcome all of their issues... the next book is defiantly something to look forward to. I'd like to see them work together and be close and TRUST each other.

I think that Tris just thought of herself and didn't think how it would impact the others. But I still love her!

Omigosh, when I got to that part in the book I was beating her with my mind! She was being SO STUPID! I remember yelling at the book more than a couple of times (earning myself many curious looks from friends and family). But when I read books, I really bond with the main character, so I couldn't get too mad... (But still. SHE WAS BEING SOO DUMB!!)

i HATE her 100000000000x THAN PETER!!!!!!

I MEAN SERIOUSLY!!! RISK UR LIFE AND EXPECT PEOPLE NOT TO CARE I MEAN COME ON!!!!!!

TOBIAS DESERVES BETTER THAN HER!!!

GRAAAAHHHHH-

*this message has been discontinued due to excessive hate for tris*

..............................................................................................................................................

RAGGGEEEEE~!!...

He might deserve better but he wants her so I think it's fine, all she was doing was trying to save her loved one!!! So I think they both deserve each other!

Sorry, I don't buy the Abnegation training argument. She was constantly going against everything Abnegation stood for, that's why she left and felt more at home elsewhere. Every time she does something that appears selfless, it's just her trying to avoid losing anyone else so she doesn't have to suffer. I thought she was pretty selfish, actually.

She has a real issue with being selfless, and therefore, Abnegation training is moot at this point. She recognizes that as something she will never be. Over and over.

I think she was just hoping that if she went, they would leave everyone else alone. She's not just Divergent, she's like Hyper-divergent. She knows she is the one they really want.

It's not really as selfless as it seems, either. She knows serums don't work on her and she can control simulations. I think she really felt she would be out of there in no time.

Just my take on it.

Regan ♥ wrote: "I feel like I'm the only one who liked Tris in Insurgent. Like, after all the shit she went through in Divergent, the girl was seriously traumatized, therefore pretty much EVERYTHING she did in Ins..."

I agree! She went to Erudite to save lives. They threatened to kill one person every two days until a divergent turned themselves in. She had to chose to save Hec or Marlene and felt terrible about it. She also didn't want Tobias to go. She was also brought up Abnegation...which made her act selflessly to save all these others above herself. I thought it was obvious why she went.

i HATE TRIS!! DIE IN HELL AND LEAVE FOURBIAS WITH ME! i'd be very glad that she dies at the end of the 3rd book, and Fourbias stays single until i find him
*sigh* hopes and dreams, hoping one day will come true :)

Give the girl a break..her parents had just died, she killed her friend and her whole world was turned upside down, she's not exactly going to be rational. She was all over the place for good reason.
It was Four/Tobias that was the jerk in the relationship..he expected Tris to tell him everything yet he didn't think she desereved the same respect. He should have been supporting her because she was vulnerable after her parents death but instead he was a rubbish boyfriend and he kept giving her a hard time over things he was doing himself.
I would hate to have a boyfriend that kept having a go at me and putting me down, so soon after dealing with my parents death. Tris deserved better than that douche.

I thought the same thing, when she went to the Eurodite by herself and betrayed Tobias that way. I was mad, but i had to also think that Tobias mom is not to be trusted , something about that woman i don't like. Tris didn't trust her either and had to work against her, Tobias didn't want to see that and i think Tris had to choice but to go and betray him. Now i could be totally wrong and in the third book Tobias mother can actually be a good guy, but as of right now i don't trust her and i would of done the same thing.

i hate Tris most of the time but the end part made me love her and hate Tobias for not trusting her.

That's true... Tobias just wanted to believe his mother actually did care about him.

I entirely agree with E, anilee, and Katara. Also, no one mentioned the fact that Tris also wanted to know why some people were Divergent and others weren't. (That's an Erudite instinct.) Also, she trusted that she had the upper hand, and might be able to escape. And the Erudite hadn't said that they would kill the Divergent that came to be researched. Even though Tris probably expected this unconsciously, it finally became a conscious thought when she was locked in.

even if i like Tris character.... I HATED HER ON THIS BOOK it was just like... omg WHY DON'T YOU JUST PUNCH TOBIAS IN HIS FACE! IT WOULD HURT LESS!

I just hate Tris, full stop. Anyone?

I like Tris, it's Tobias I really hate. He was an absolute selfish hypocritical douche.

Tris's parents died and she was also dealing with killing her friend in self defense but did Tobias give a damn about her emotional and mental state? No, he was too selfish and he didn't love Tris enough to support her and help her through her personal hell. Who'd want a loser boyfriend like that?

After losing so much and grieving for her parents, Tobias shouldn't have been shouting at Tris or talking down at her or treating her like crap. What kind of horrid person acts like that towards a grieving teen? If I'd just lost my parents and someone who supposedly loved me was having a go at me and making me feeling like shit, I'd stay away from that person forever.

Tobias only cared about his own problems which were NOTHING in comparison to what Tris was going through. And him berating her for not sharing everything with him when he was doing EXACTLY the same thing.. WTF?! He's such a slimy hypocrite, he never trusted or had faith in Tris so why would she trust him?

He's one of the worst heroes I've ever read.

Ferdy wrote: "I like Tris, it's Tobias I really hate. He was an absolute selfish hypocritical douche.

Tris's parents died and she was also dealing with killing her friend in self defense but did Tobias give a d..."
Yes, that was a pretty moronic Tobias moment. Although, to be honest, Tris herself is equally moronic for sticking with him. Coupled, they make for rather infuriating reading.

papertigertails wrote: "Yes, that was a pretty moronic Tobias moment. Although, to be honest, Tris herself is equally moronic for sticking with him."

It wasn't just a moment though, it was the entire book that Tobias was being awful to Tirs, and it was literally only days after her parents death. What kind of boyfriend does that?
Tris was fragile, hurting and lost but Tobias was more interested in himself. I couldn't believe how vile he was acting towards her.

I know Tris was a moron but that's not a surprise.. She's a teenager who wasn't mentally or emotionally well after her parents death. She's going to be doing dumb things. Most teenagers are emotional messes so soon after the death of a loved one. It was understandable that she was behaving so stupidly. What she needed was love and support - she didn't need Tobias snarling in her face and putting her down because she wasn't little miss perfect.

Tobias was okay in the first book but he was a mean, vile, unredeemable loser in the second.

Ferdy wrote: "papertigertails wrote: "Yes, that was a pretty moronic Tobias moment. Although, to be honest, Tris herself is equally moronic for sticking with him."

It wasn't just a moment though, it was the ent..."

Very true. I think as well as him being an insensitive twat in the story, it sort of shows up pretty poor character development. We all know he isn't exactly the most feeling person out there, but the fact that this carries even when his ( admittedly punchworthy) girlfriend is an emotional wreck is way over the top. What I didn't get was why he was so upset about finding out that Tris killed Will. Sure, maybe he thought she ought to have told him, but he actually got angry. What the heck is it to him?

IKR, I really didn't get his anger and indignation. Tris killed someone, not just someone but her good friend. She's hardly going to want to talk about it because she'd be feeling ashamed, guilty and scared of everyone's reaction. Not only that, she was dealing with her parents death as well, can you blame her for not confiding in anyone?

Tobias's anger was laughable. It's not like he told her about his mum, his family or the plans he was making. Why the double standard? Why doesn't Tris call him out on his hypocrisy? Why doesn't she demand answers herself? Why is she such a doormat? Why does she let her boyfriend treat her like rubbish?

Ugh, I just hate Tobias. He's a silly, selfish boy.

Tris was saying one thing and doing another left and right in Insurgent. Tobias got mad and rightfully so. When you can't predict what someone will do, it's kinda hard to trust them, even if you mentally know that they are ultimately on your side. He did make up for it by following her to Erudite -- even if it was not 100 percent for her.

Tobias was acting like a true dauntless while he was being hard on Tris. As for the "why didn't you tell me about such and such" issue, they had been dating for what - two or three days? That's him moving things on a little quick.

Personally, despite all of this, I love both of them and I love them together.

I think that Tris wanted to do something good because she thought it would somehow redeem herself for shooting Will.
She still feels depressed because her parents are dead, remember? I think she would've jumped out the window the one time but instead threw a chair. She was being reckless because she didn't want life anymore. It says so right in the book.

Also, it was threatened that if someone didn't give themselves up to the Erudite, others would die. She used to be an Abnegation, and despite the fact that she doesn't believe it, I think she is mostly a selfless person. And this would happen every night someone didn't turn themselves in, so it was a rash decision.