Marquise’s Reviews > The Traitors Circle: The Rebels Against the Nazis and the Spy Who Betrayed Them > Status Update

(B) in particular drives me crazy

Michelle wrote: "(B) in particular drives me crazy"

Something in his favour: He has dared criticise Netanyahu, unlike some other UK & US journos who keep kissing Bibi's behind no matter what he does.

I meant the attributing of inner thoughts to historical figures. That always ruins things when authors do that. I think the only author I can overlook it is Bernard Cornwell.

Michelle wrote: "I meant the attributing of inner thoughts to historical figures. That always ruins things when authors do that. I think the only author I can overlook it is Bernard Cornwell."

Ah! Haha, I mistook it for the B in the bullet list for my first update, that shows just below the one you're commenting on. :)

For non-fiction, you mean? Because I only know Cornwell as a novelist, in which case it's fine. A novel is fiction, you can do that. But this book is non-fiction history, you're not supposed to treat your subjects of research as characters you can project thoughts and feelings on.

Have you read Simon Winder's histories of Europe, Marquise? He does that sort of thing all the time, but prefaces it by saying, "It seems like..." or "I can imagine Heinrich the Fowler thinking..."

I find it combines the best of a novelistic and historical approach, but not everyone agrees.

Left Coast Justin wrote: "Have you read Simon Winder's histories of Europe, Marquise? He does that sort of thing all the time, but prefaces it by saying, "It seems like..." or "I can imagine Heinrich the Fowler thinking..."..."

I haven't, no, but I know exactly what you mean. There are historians who do this sort of 'speculative attribution' (for lack of a better way to describe it), it's not that rare and I don't generally have a problem with it. Speculation and educated guesses are common in history writing, often necessary to try and fill in the gaps as there's way too many holes in the sources.

The spy who betrayed the rebels or the Nazis?

....

This is why some people think I have undiagnosed autism.

Imagining the unknowable is also becoming a major annoyance in works on ancient history. I understand the desire to fill in the big gaps in what we know, but there should still be a difference between scholarship and creative writing (and also between scholarship and advocacy, but that is another bête-noire).

Given that you, quite rightly from what I read, 1-starred Escape from Auschwitz, thanks for the in-progress update here. I won't look for it at my library. I passed on "Escape" in part because of your review.

Socraticgadfly wrote: "Given that you, quite rightly from what I read, 1-starred Escape from Auschwitz, thanks for the in-progress update here. I won't look for it at my library."

Part of me wants you to read this to give it the treatment it deserves, but the other part of me knows you'd toss the book out the window upon the intro note. There's a howler there...

We'll see how far into this I can get. So far, I'm dozing off and wincing from time to time. I can't see what new thing can this book bring to me if I already know the story of the Solfs and who betrayed them...

Fred wrote: "Imagining the unknowable is also becoming a major annoyance in works on ancient history."

Completely agree on all your points, Fred!

mwana wrote: "The spy who betrayed the rebels or the Nazis?

....

This is why some people think I have undiagnosed autism."

Akshually, both. 🤣

Jokes aside, Freedland is playing thriller writer and trying to create suspense because most people don't even know who these people are. But it's funny that the title can be construed as ambiguous when you look at it closely. You'd think it would be clear that the betrayed ones are the resisters...

Marquise wrote: "Socraticgadfly wrote: "Given that you, quite rightly from what I read, 1-starred Escape from Auschwitz, thanks for the in-progress update here. I won't look for it at my library."

Part of me wants..."

Yes, the newer Soc, like the newer Marquise, gets rougher on some of his reviews!

That said, per my update, that book on Elizabeth's succession looks interesting — but see also the two-star reviewer. Also, the six loves of James VI and I also also looks interesting.

Sounds like you'll have your plate full with more interesting things! Forget about this one, then. Bet you already know the story anyway, too.

Marquise wrote: "Sounds like you'll have your plate full with more interesting things! Forget about this one, then. Bet you already know the story anyway, too."

I'm not totally read on the actual event that collapsed the Solf Circle, but I know the basics of the circle, and how the collapse, to move beyond it to Nazi military history, eventually blew up the Abwehr. (I know fairly extensively about it and Admiral Canaris.)

Socraticgadfly wrote: "I'm not totally read on the actual event that collapsed the Solf Circle, but I know the basics of the circle, and how the collapse, to move beyond it to Nazi military history, eventually blew up the Abwehr. (I know fairly extensively about it and Admiral Canaris.)"

Then you already know what's in there, Canaris, Oster, von Thadden, Maltzan, etc., they're all here, all familiar names.

Why do I keep hoping for something fresh and new 80 years later, when all is already said and done and whatever 'new' we get is either revisionist garbage or 'Oooh, lemme tell you about this Totally Unknown 'N' Forgotten event (that every WWII history buff knows) that I found about 5 seconds ago and buy my book with Brand-Spankin' Stuff no historian has thought of" cash grabs like this book?

Why am I such a masochist? :'(

Marquise wrote: "Socraticgadfly wrote: "I'm not totally read on the actual event that collapsed the Solf Circle, but I know the basics of the circle, and how the collapse, to move beyond it to Nazi military history..."

Speaking of, sadly, the one World War ONE book I would like to read, beyond my extensive reading there, is totally unavailable on interlibrary loan and well over $100 to buy. It's a book totally about Apis' treason trial in 1917, and the only book about that of which I am aware.

Linkie?

Not even on Goodreads, so rare! www DOT amazon DOT com/s?k=9780880333207&i=stripbooks&linkCode=qs

And, even though fully owned by Amazon, you can't put full Amazon links here.

Socraticgadfly wrote: "Not even on Goodreads, so rare! www DOT amazon DOT com/s?k=9780880333207&i=stripbooks&linkCode=qs

And, even though fully owned by Amazon, you can't put full Amazon links here."

Author does, on here, have a bio of Apis: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

And, add this. I stumbled across eventually finding that book via this piece that says Kaiser Karl may have talked to Serbia, as well as his better known outreach to France via his Bourbon-Parma relatives in Italy www1live DOT wordpress DOT com/tag/the-black-hand/

Have you heard about OpenLibrary, Soccy? I have found some rare books there (they've majorly had to overhaul their site after a legal dispute with publishers vs archive.org a few years back, but they're still a good source of rare books).

I typed MacKenzie on their search and they directed me to the worldcat catalogue listing libraries that have it. Maybe this is the book? I see that some Unis in Florida and one in Georgia have it, the GA one says it can be borrowed on my end.
https : // search . worldcat . org/title/20561908?oclcNum=20561908

Marquise wrote: "Have you heard about OpenLibrary, Soccy? I have found some rare books there (they've majorly had to overhaul their site after a legal dispute with publishers vs archive.org a few years back, but th..."

Yes, that's it. I asked my library, but they only do ILLs inside Texas. And, there was only one hit that I got and they said no. :(

I may try again, and also on the Apis bio, which itself likely has interesting stuff.

On the story, it's clear that Apis was being sacrificed. Spring 1917 was about the nadir for the Allies. I think Pasic was afraid not only of the Central Powers, but that, if the Allies entered peace talks, they would ask him questions they had failed to ask three years earlier. How much more he knew than the vague plausible deniability warning he sent Vienna, I don't know, but he knew more, and I would hope a book like this explores that.

You're in luck! Turns out I can get it thanks to my black arts and Hobbitish powers of cajolery. :P

I'll email you later or tomorrow.

Marquise wrote: "You're in luck! Turns out I can get it thanks to my black arts and Hobbitish powers of cajolery. :P

I'll email you later or tomorrow."

I'll stand by ....

I did already find an "appetite whetter" (I hope) on Academia:

www DOT academia DOT edu/3565686/The_Salonica_Trial_1917_Black_Hand_vs_Democracy_The_Serbian_Army_from_Internal_Strife_to_Military_Succes_

Sounds good! Check your mail, by the way.

Marquise is a princess, folks, and that Academia piece indeed was a good appetite-whetter. OK, can transition from WW One back to II.

Socraticgadfly wrote: "Marquise is a princess, folks, and that Academia piece indeed was a good appetite-whetter. OK, can transition from WW One back to II."

Hehe, enjoy it, Soccy! <3

I'm currently taking a test run through the first chapter of a biography (written by a guy who's won a major writing award), and already it's set off my skeptic-o-meter. (1) using "political correctness" in a derogatory way, in a book released after 2020. C'mon man, if you want to break out that dogwhistle, the current term is "woke." (2) every factoid he finds about the subject's childhood somehow connects to an aspect of their famous life as an adult. Our childhoods form us, to be sure, but it isn't a one-to-one correlation. There's at least one other thing, but this comment is long already...

Anyhow, it looks like you DNFed this one. Here's hoping your next non-fiction read does better for you!

Beth wrote: " (1) using "political correctness" in a derogatory way, in a book released after 2020. C'mon man, if you want to break out that dogwhistle, the current term is "woke."."

Hehehe, that made me chuckle. I still use 'politically incorrect' humorously, and the other day a gentleman in my town's group was saying the same you did. :D

Sigh, I've significantly reduced my non-fic intake, mostly because the latest WWII stuff is just regurgitation of the same old or revisionism or 'lemme tell ya about this new thingie I found!' Or all three at once.

Marquise wrote: "Socraticgadfly wrote: "Marquise is a princess, folks, and that Academia piece indeed was a good appetite-whetter. OK, can transition from WW One back to II."

Hehe, enjoy it, Soccy! <3"

About 40 percent through or a bit more. Pretty good on structure. (Starts with Apis and the two others who have had their appeal of sentence denied going to their execution, with a small bit of the backstory, then cuts back to Apis' birth and moves forward. Informative on some details of the 1903 coup that I didn't know about, and at least one animosity out of that, that ties to 1917. "Problematic" on one issue that he doesn't have any sources for, but I'll leave that for the review!)

Good! I'm going to be stalking your updates for that review. :)

Marquise wrote: " I've significantly reduced my non-fic intake, mostly because the latest WWII stuff is just regurgitation of the same old or revisionism or 'lemme tell ya about this new thingie I found!' Or all three at once."

I suspect a lot of readers who delve heavily into a subject, but don't have the harder to access resources academics do, will run into this eventually.

Marquise wrote: "Beth wrote: " (1) using "political correctness" in a derogatory way, in a book released after 2020. C'mon man, if you want to break out that dogwhistle, the current term is "woke."."

Hehehe, that ..."

Wait until you see one of my next two or three reviews. Like one a month or so ago (surprised you didn't even comment on that one, but you may have missed it), I am reading a book related to my professionally-unused graduate degree, that's an obscure original material, and so, the new book is as well. I'll almost certainly be the first reviewer.

Ugh, I most certainly have missed it! The algorithm sucks, always has, and now even more so.

But you can always poke me if you don't see me on it, I can't always keep up with everything like I wish I could.

Beth wrote: "I suspect a lot of readers who delve heavily into a subject, but don't have the harder to access resources academics do, will run into this eventually."

Certainly! I see it all the time, but sometimes I stop and wonder if the hyper-focused readers even notice or care or are numbed to it all and just want their dose of their pet subject?

Marquise wrote: "Ugh, I most certainly have missed it! The algorithm sucks, always has, and now even more so.

But you can always poke me if you don't see me on it, I can't always keep up with everything like I wis..."

The book was bad enough, and made me LESS likely to believe the Testimonium Flavianum is even partially actually Josephus than before. Then, I find out the book is funded by a fundagelical Daddy Warbucks (anonymous, too)? https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Ah! I did see that one, but didn't comment as I had nothing to add.

Marquise wrote: "Ah! I did see that one, but didn't comment as I had nothing to add."

Wasn't sure if it triggered your critical religious bones at all. Anyway, I am reading two books online, one about a far more obscure religious book than Josephus, and still plugging away on the Apis, and reading a hardcover book all three at once.

Lucky you! I can't handle more than one book at once these days, I'm all over the place.