Katia N’s Reviews > Goliath's Curse: The History and Future of Societal Collapse > Status Update

It is a tempting argument to make though I think of the pacific northwest and I don't think such competitive status events lead to such consequences while I believe the evidence for massive communal feasting in stone age europe predates evidence of complex hierarchical societies (unless you argue in a circular manner that such feasting necessitates a complex hierarchy)

Jan-Maat wrote: "It is a tempting argument to make though I think of the pacific northwest and I don't think such competitive status events lead to such consequences while I believe the evidence for massive communa..."

Thank you, Jann. You are more knowledgable in these things that I am. Also until I finish I am not totally convinced where he would take this argument. Any hypotheses of such type about pre-history would be bound by some assumptions. So far what I like about this book, he seems to be quite logical through. He has got some response to your second point. He says in Stone Age those feasts were not about the status, rather about bonding. The society was much more egalitarian and if someone would try to fight for status he would be silly killed by the majority. That is unless it was some temporary affair such as a skill in hunt. So he claims any kind of status games (inequality) has started with the Holocene period. In terms of the Northwest pacific, he gives the example of tribes that have become hierarchical without agriculture but with salmon fishing. They've learned how to store the fish and made it "lootable" good. Therefore, according to him, those feasts were status related. (That is if I understood him correctly).

At the end he uses 'lootable goods' but it seems to me, all of this comes to the old marxist surplus of production that seems to appear with better tools. He empathises more environmental factors such as climate change. But I do not see the contradiction. In terms of the human nature whether it was greed or fight for power (status), it does not matter than much as far as the accumulation is concerned.

What he is puzzled with is why they've moved to sedentary agriculture from much healthier foraging/hunting. He does not seem to have a very good answer apart from population growth to some extent.

But what I liked at this passage the most is the idea that 'wasteful' consumption stimulates growth of growth sake. And we seem to be caught in this spiral until now.

Wow, Katia, I'll have to return (it is currently 8am on a Monday morning where I am), but this sounds like it focuses on the development of the social instinct and I'm fascinated by that. Have you seen the documentary, Chimp Empire? It's on Netflix, and it's directed by the same guy who did My Octopus Teacher (although co-directed, and James may have needed that co).

Jennifer wrote: "Wow, Katia, I'll have to return (it is currently 8am on a Monday morning where I am), but this sounds like it focuses on the development of the social instinct and I'm fascinated by that. Have you ..."

Thank you very much, Jennifer. By the time I got to replying you've probably finished your coffee:-) Thank you for the tips with the Netflix. I have not seen these documentaries. But I as well find these topics very fascinating. They are also related to my interest in what is consciousness and how intelligent different creatures are. I think they might talk about some of this when they talked of Octopus. This books is more about people and how we ended up here. I always like how different authors have different assumptions of the human nature to start with. This book is not an exception, but so far it is clever, logic and even a bit optimistic for a book about collapses:)

Katia wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "It is a tempting argument to make though I think of the pacific northwest and I don't think such competitive status events lead to such consequences while I believe the evidence fo..."

My impression is that almost everyone is puzzled by the transition to agriculture, sure once you start, you have to keep it up because of the size of population -there is no going back then without mass starvation.

It might be that the transition was on the backs of women's labour, i think there is some evidence for that in some places, but more to do with processing other food stuffs - but then you are assuming inequality.

With the stone age feasting events though, it is open to interpretation, there is no evidence to say it was about status display or bonding, there is just the fact of the events.

Katia wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Wow, Katia, I'll have to return (it is currently 8am on a Monday morning where I am), but this sounds like it focuses on the development of the social instinct and I'm fascinated b..."

I don't know how anyone could not be fascinated by consciousness, Katia, lol, and you might love My Octopus Teacher which was way better than Chimp Empire, although both interesting. Have you read any books on consciousness you'd recommend? Meanwhile, I added this, thank you, :).

Jan-Maat wrote: "Katia wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "It is a tempting argument to make though I think of the pacific northwest and I don't think such competitive status events lead to such consequences while I believe t..."

It is interesting what you are saying about women labour. It might be the case as they've stayed home while men were hunting and probably had more time to experiment with soil etc. But i think why it could not be totally by accident? They've done something with grain and the result just appeared to be sweet and plain tasty, gooey in unhealthy way like a donaught, very unlike a piece of meat or let's say a nut:-) So they've got hooked or call it mildly addicted. So it has started.

And the feast in the Stone Age - you are right - no-one would know for sure. I think he refers to other indirect evidence like burial, huge architecture etc at the same time. But fundamentally it is all theories.

Jennifer wrote: "Katia wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Wow, Katia, I'll have to return (it is currently 8am on a Monday morning where I am), but this sounds like it focuses on the development of the social instinct and I'..."

I plan to read about Octopus next, Jennifer. And I've got a whole shelf here on this type of thing. You can take your pick. The last very impressive but maybe a bit too technical one I liked was The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness. But it was so full of ideas than I've never actually written a proper review:-)

Katia wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "Katia wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "It is a tempting argument to make though I think of the pacific northwest and I don't think such competitive status events lead to such consequences ..."

Oh the transition to agriculture, it seems in several places that hunting, gathering, and agriculture went on for some time together - no need to assume that the men were out hunting and the women left to invent gardening, i heard recently that 40% of the stone age burials with hunting equipment were of women so transitioning from that to a situation in which you see damage to women's bones, knees and lower backs, presumably from processing grains and nuts is shocking .

Thank you, Jann. Sorry missed your comment. Ok, no assumptions then:-). I wonder who was looking after the babies. But maybe grandparents. Sounds very civilised. And yes, the impact of agriculture on everyone seemed pretty grim health wise all around including indigestion, bad teeth, physical deformities you’ve pointed out etc.