Jay’s Reviews > A History of Western Philosophy > Status Update

"There goes with this a certain coldness in the Stoic conception of virtue. Not only bad passions are condemned, but all passions. The sage does not feel sympathy; when his wife or his children die, he reflects that this event is no obstacle to his own virtue, and therefore he does not suffer deeply. Friendship, so highly prized by Epicurus, is all very well, but it must not be carried to the point where your friend's misfortunes can destroy your holy calm. As for public life, it may be your duty to engage in it, since it gives opportunities for justice, fortitude, and so on; but you must not be actuated by a desire to benefit mankind, since the benefits you can confer—such as peace, or a more adequate supply of food—are no true benefits, and, in any case, nothing matters to you except your own virtue. The Stoic is not virtuous in order to do good, but does good in order to be virtuous. It has not occurred to him to love his neighbor as himself; love, except in a superficial sense, is absent from his conception of virtue. When I say this, I am thinking of love as an emotion, not as a principle. As a principle, the Stoics preached universal love"

And what do you think about that, Jay? 🙃 Or is this an example of a paragraph that can put you to sleep? 🤭

>What do you think
It reaffirms my disliking of stoicism. And no way, this is a very interesting paragraph, I only put it as a comment under this post because it passed the word limit for making a reading update

Or more than "disliking of stoicism", disapproving with its principles

What about you Dyego?

I was mostly posting it so that I could see your reaction 🤭

>"What about you Dyego?"

This isn't relevant to your paragraph about how apathetic stoics are to the passions of life, but on the topic of stoicism, I don't think it's a very productive way of living life at all. Have you heard of the growth vs fixed mindset when it comes to studying and learning? Well, actually, have you heard of Aesop's fable of the fox and the sour grapes? In case you haven't, a fox was hungrily wandering around a field when it came across a delicious vineyard of grapes. However, after a couple tries of attempting to reach them, it gave up and as it walked away, it concluded that the grapes were probably sour, and thus not worth eating anyway. I think the stoic mindset is very similar to that, accepting everything that happens to you rather than taking action to improve your situation: "I'll keep being friends with this terrible person because it gives me an opportunity to practice virtue and patience", "the fact that my boss refuses to give me a raise teaches me to have more humility, and accept life's hardships, even though I may deserve it", whereas we can conceive of a non-stoic fox who tried and tried and tried, and ended up succeeding in tasting the actually delicious grapes, we can conceive of a person who chooses their friends wisely because rather than accepting the people in their life as something they can't control, but rather, they should control their own reactions to the terrible friend's insults or whatever (sounds like what a stoic would say), we can also conceive of an employee who continues fighting for that raise, or seeks a different job with better prospects and fairly rewards their hard work.

Also another quintessential example of this is when they changed me at the beginning of the year from 11Y to 11T (by the way, thank you so much for everything you did to bring me back 😋), the stoic part of me was thinking "maybe life in 11T will be better, or maybe it'll be worse, but this experience will teach me patience and virtue and whatnot, so maybe I should just accept this as one of the vicissitudes of life", however the non-stoic parts of you and Grgur making the questionnaire, and my mum relentlessly sending emails to the school actually sought to shape the future for the better, rather than accept the worse conditions, so I feel like 11T might have been the sour grapes which I'm glad I didn't accept, because Year 11 was probably my favourite academic year ever, and I had so so much fun every day, which probably wouldn't have been the case in 11T. Anyways, those were just my thoughts on stoicism, let me actually acknowledge your paragraph now 🤭🤭🤭

Just to add one more thing, I also dislike stoic quotes such as "take from the banquet of life modestly, don't chase after food (positive experiences), but rather, wait until they come to you", wait let me Google the actual quote:

"“Remember that you must behave in life as at a banquet. Is anything brought around to you? Put out your hand and take your share with moderation. Does it pass by you? Do not stop it. Is it not yet come? Do not stretch your desire towards it, but wait till it reaches you. Do this with regard to children, to a wife, to public posts, to riches, and you will eventually be a worthy partner of the feasts of the gods.” - Epictetus

So in this case, I probably agree with you, that it's better to take from the banquet of life lavishly and have as many experiences as possible. I think we should stretch our desires and be ambitious in our goals and the experiences we seek to have

Actually, one other thing before I address your paragraph (you've opened up a can of worms by asking me about stoicism), let me just comment on the aspects of stoicism I do admire:

So let me take some good quotes from the Meditations poster I have in my room right in front of me right now:

"The best revenge is to be unlike the person who committed the injury" - Absolutely priceless quote that should be shouted throughout the world

"Think of yourself as dead. You have lived your life. Now, take what's left, and live it properly" (Decent, just nice to have this perspective once in a while, reminds me of the saying I actually really like which goes: "Today is the first day of the rest of your life"

"The Sparts, at their public spectacles, would set seats in the shade for strangers, but they themselves sat anywhere" (Not sure if this has anything to do with stoicism, but a nice mentality to have, reminds me of the quote "A society grows great when elderly people plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in"

"We all love ourselves more than other people, yet care more about their opinion, than our own" (Nothing to say, just 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥)

>"The sage does not feel sympathy; when his wife or his children die, he reflects that this event is no obstacle to his own virtue, and therefore he does not suffer deeply."

Even worse than this, when they grow ill, a stoic sage might accept this as a vissicitude (no idea how you spell that) of nature, and recognise that death is a part of life, or, to quote Marcus Aurelius "We should come to our final resting place gracefully, just as a ripened olive might drop, praising the earth that nourished it and grateful to the tree that gave it growth". On the other hand, a non-stoic sage might do everything in their power to attempt to cure and treat the ill, a much more productive attitude to have

>"re he does not suffer deeply."
Indeed, but suffering is an evolutionary feeling to motivate us to change our situation for the better, a life without suffering and only placid acceptance might not amount to much at all

>"The Stoic is not virtuous in order to do good, but does good in order to be virtuous."

This is like another Marcus Aurelius quote I have right in front of me (the poster's pretty big 🤭), which goes "When you have done a good act, do not call for others to come and see, but go on to another act, as a vine goes on to produce again grapes in a season." I don't think this attitude of doing kindness to the world for the sake of being a good, or virtuous person is toooooooo troublesome

This book does actually look really good, by the way, I'll definitely have to read it myself eventually

Also another quote which I'm impartial to now: (although idk, maybe I do like it under a certain interpretation) "The richest is not the one who has the most money, but rather the one who is content with the least"

I think some ambition and goal-setting is important in life, not just basic satisfaction with the bare minimum, yk? An olympic gold medalist, who constantly strives to push harder, break their previous record... etc., will probably live a more fulfilling life, than someone who's content to win the bare minimum required to make a living off of it. (Idk what I'm talking about anymore, I'm not sure if that last sentence was even relevant 🫠)