Kara > Status Update

They're doing it because the books featuring the manwhore-virgin and the Manwhore/doormat combo are usually more popular than safe romances. The key market of selfpubs seem to be the readers from places where traditional mysoginist values are still norm Like villages in Germany or the US bible belt. Notice that altough I recently posted the high numbers from Thalassa's four horsemen (safe romance) unsafe series by unsafe authors like L.J. shen sell more. LJ shen's most recent book (Virgin hero but OM drama) has been longer than four horseman in the bestselling lists.

We safety gang pals are minority. Notice how the safety GR group has fewer members than the cheating group. The only think we can do is keep reading, purchasing (no piracy or borrows) and recommending safe reads. So that the authors know that they should keep writing safe romance even if it doesn't sell as much as their unsafe offerings.

Can you please recommend a safe non-contemporary to me? I always make sure to recommend the books I love to my friends and spread the voice that romance doesn't have to be about manwhores and doormats and still be well-written and be even sexier than the usual unecessary angst and mysoginia many authors put us through.

V. A Court of Wings and Ruin is NEW ADULT/EROTICA but Goodreads editors won't tell you to include it in the choice awards wrote: "They're doing it because the books featuring the manwhore-virgin and the Manwhore/doormat combo are usually more popular than safe romances. The key market of selfpubs seem to be the readers from p..."

A lot of good points, V. Depressing, frustrating, but good points.

As far as recommendations for a safe non-contemporary, do you mean a historical? I stopped reading those a while ago because the double standards pissed me off - the H was always a rake, the h was always either fresh out of the schoolroom or a bluestocking spinster. Kerrigan Byrne's "The Highwayman" is safe (virgin H; minor OM drama), but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Let me know if you meant something else!

Kara wrote: "V. A Court of Wings and Ruin is NEW ADULT/EROTICA but Goodreads editors won't tell you to include it in the choice awards wrote: "They're doing it because the books featuring the manwhore-virgin an..."

I don't like contemporary much. I don't like modern world, real setting. I need safe recommendations that don't feature a contemporary setting. Unless is an alternative reality.

V. A Court of Wings and Ruin is NEW ADULT/EROTICA but Goodreads editors won't tell you to include it in the choice awards wrote: "Kara wrote: "V. A Court of Wings and Ruin is NEW ADULT/EROTICA but Goodreads editors won't tell you to include it in the choice awards wrote: "They're doing it because the books featuring the manwh..."

I'll try to think of some other safe historicals, but I've gotten away from them in the last few years with very few exceptions. If I come across any, I'll let you know.

It’s sad, but I agree, it just comes down to sales and producing what’s on demand. But I really do wish that authors would write stories with more nuance, and problems generated by things other than “OW/OM”. Quite frankly you can pull people to tears when you connect with a reader based on a problem they can actually relate to.

Katerina wrote: "It’s sad, but I agree, it just comes down to sales and producing what’s on demand. But I really do wish that authors would write stories with more nuance, and problems generated by things other tha..."

Amen Katrina. I think it's laziness and the desire to push out as many books as possible to make the most amount of money. It just seems so cynical to me, which is the last thing I want in my romance reads.

But surely no romance fan will dislike a romance novel because the hero only has eyes for the heroine!? How can anyone hate safe books purely because they are safe? How can anyone dislike the hero for being faithful and devoted?

Do you think writers write this crap because readers want this manwhore hero and virgin heroine or because writers themselves are misogynistics who believe in double standards?

It really beats my mind why would any sane women want a manwhore hero for a virgin women.

Yes kara i totally get you, its so annoying. When an author writes a wonderful feminist love story with a strong message, i assume that she will never promote double standards, glorify abuse and cheating and doormat heroines.
But then I read the next book which is basically gives the opposite message. Like how can the same person write this 2 very conflicting novels?

Btw which author/book are you referring to?

I think some readers just really like angst and drama, tbh. Some readers seek out books about cheating and abuse.

I'm not sure why authors use the manwhore/virgin trope. I think some of it is internalized misogyny: women should pure for their one true love, and men can do as they like because man. Some of it, I think, is wish fulfillment, like out of all the other women the manwhore has been with, he chose the sweet virgin who is often plain or unremarkable, so take that, hot bitches from high school who were mean to me! Some of it is that it's a trope that's sold well for so long that they don't bother to subvert the norm. It pays the bills, so why change it up? And then there's just straight-up laziness. Why bother to think of something different when the same old crap will do?

Honestly there are probably some other nuanced reasons that I'm missing, but I really lack the energy to put too much thought into it. It just bums me out that women still write this, and women still devour it.

I can't remember exactly which book fueled that status, because I usually block that stuff out so it won't continue to upset me. Cynthia Eden is one author I can think of who's disappointed me a lot with her recent releases, after writing a seriously awesome and sex-positive heroine in "Wicked and Wild." But I'm blanking on other examples at the moment.

Kara wrote: "I can't remember exactly which book fueled that status, because I usually block that stuff out so it won't continue to upset me. Cynthia Eden is one author I can think of who's disappointed me a lo..."

Oh wow that's really disappointing! I remember that series- most of the books were safe with celibate heroes and more sexually confident heroines and what not. Is she writing virgin h with player H now!?
Yeah i am seeing this trend where even safe authors are writing increasingly unsafe books. We are meant to progress not regress!

I've only read a few books in that series, because I don't usually like paranormal reads. But the ones I read were safe. Honestly she kinda goes back and forth with really awesome, experienced heroines and devoted heroes in one book, then the next one is a manwhore with a less-experienced heroine.

It's mainly her new series, the "Wilde Ways" books, that I'm having issues with. Books 1 and 3 have manwhore heroes who sleeps around while being "in love" (massive eyeroll) with the heroines (who of course have less experience because why not?) Book 4 has a rock star hero, and you know what that means. Book 2 was fine. But honestly, I'm done with her.

Kara wrote: "I've only read a few books in that series, because I don't usually like paranormal reads. But the ones I read were safe. Honestly she kinda goes back and forth with really awesome, experienced hero..."

God I hate the i love you but for some unfathomable reason i am going to fuck every women out there instead of just asking you out and making you mine.
I just pick and choose whatever books i like by whatever author.
But there are some authors i will always avoid like LJ Shen and Colleen Hoover etc who almost always write manwhore H and virgin h with a lot of slut shaming and OW scenes because they never write books i will love.

Girl you're not lying. I have an "untrustworthy authors" shelf for a reason. Sometimes it's because they get shitty with reviewers who criticize their books (look dead at you, Jordan Marie and R.S. Grey), but more often it's because they always write tropes that are just tired, sexist, and unimaginative.

Kara wrote: "I think some readers just really like angst and drama, tbh. Some readers seek out books about cheating and abuse.

I'm not sure why authors use the manwhore/virgin trope. I think some of it is int..."

Sorry for chiming in. I'm 22 and I love Virgin heroines because I can't relate to protagonists that have had more than 1 sexual partner. I haven't even dated yet so New adult and virgin heroines are my favorite kind of romance. I have a huge problem with manwhores, but not with virgins.

Corinne wrote: "Kara wrote: "I think some readers just really like angst and drama, tbh. Some readers seek out books about cheating and abuse.

I'm not sure why authors use the manwhore/virgin trope. I think some..."



No i get why you prefer virgin heroines. But then wouldn't you also want your love interest to be a virgin preferably. Or would you want a guy who has slept with 100s of women and continues to have sex with OWs after meeting you and getting feelings or you.
But I am 19 years old and I also haven't been with multiple men yet i always prefer/love sexually experienced heroine because i am sick of women having no experience and men having loads. I hate the double standards.

And also because i do intend to be more sexually active in the future so i guess i don't relate to women who want to wait till marriage/true love as I like the idea of having casual sex.

Corinne wrote: "Kara wrote: "I think some readers just really like angst and drama, tbh. Some readers seek out books about cheating and abuse.

I'm not sure why authors use the manwhore/virgin trope. I think some..."

No worries Corinne - it's nice to get someone else's viewpoint on this.

My belief is that women in real life should be able to control their sexual agency, whether they prefer to be promiscuous or remain virgins until they get married. There are societal and religious implications a lot of times that influence that decision, and I won't speak to that because I have my own views on the role those things play in a woman's sexuality. I'm not out to offend anyone's beliefs.

What I find problematic in fiction is that too often a woman's virginity is literally a symbol of her worth. She's better than the women the H has been with before because she kept herself pure, even if he was a huge slut. (Literally one of CP Smith's books in the Wallflowers series has the heroine saying "I was unsoiled by another man. I guess being a virgin is a bonus for some men.” Unsoiled?!?) Again, in real life, people should make their own choices and I respect that absolutely. But in fiction, especially romance, having a virginal heroine is almost always a way to identify her as a good person, or worthy of the hero's love. It ties in to a lot of slut-shaming usually, and judging other women by their appearances and sexual experience. And the H is almost never a virgin, which people wave off as "oh well he's a man, he's not supposed to be" and that sends a dangerous message about performative and toxic masculinity IMO.

Thank you for your comment!

Eva wrote: "Corinne wrote: "Kara wrote: "I think some readers just really like angst and drama, tbh. Some readers seek out books about cheating and abuse.

I'm not sure why authors use the manwhore/virgin tro..."

Eva, you basically said exactly everything I think about this trope. If my h is a virgin, my H should be too. Anything else is a double standard and reinforces the idea that men can be sexual and still be valued, while women have to be pure to be worthy of love.

I agree with everything Kara and Eva said. I watch for both of your reviews to see what you like and don't like because I know I'll probably feel the same way.

✴ Cindy ✴ wrote: "I agree with everything Kara and Eva said. I watch for both of your reviews to see what you like and don't like because I know I'll probably feel the same way."

Same, Cindy! If I see you've marked a book as a no-go, I automatically do it without even looking because I know I'll agree.

Kara wrote: "Corinne wrote: "Kara wrote: "I think some readers just really like angst and drama, tbh. Some readers seek out books about cheating and abuse.

I'm not sure why authors use the manwhore/virgin tro..."
Amen to all that completely. Also I just find it highly unromantic. This guy is your first kiss, your first love, your first everything. He's incredibly special to you because what you shared with him is something you never had with another guy. But he has done that with countless women. All the things that are so new and different for you, is nothing new for him. Its giving too much power to the man, too much imbalance in the dynamics of the relationship IMO. Not what i want to read in a romance novel I read for escape.

Yes in my experience religion plays a huge role. All of my friends who want to wait for marriage are really religious. But they would preferably want a guy who is also religious and has waited for marriage. There's no double standard in that.

The thing is that all my female friends who are virgins because of their culture, upbringing and religion- their brothers are also expected and taught to be virgins.

Eva wrote: "Its giving too much power to the man, too much imbalance in the dynamics of the relationship IMO."

This cuts exactly to the heart of why I hate this trope: all the power rests with the male. And this is why I find it sexist: because power always shifts towards the male end of the spectrum. Perfectly stated, Eva.

Kara wrote: "Eva wrote: "Its giving too much power to the man, too much imbalance in the dynamics of the relationship IMO."

This cuts exactly to the heart of why I hate this trope: all the power rests with the..."

Which is really a conundrum I can't wrap my mind around- why would novels written by women for women shift all the power towards the made end of the spectrum.
Maybe it's a wish fulfillment, some sort of fantasy- the guy who never who never commits, changes his ways just for you. But this is highly unrealistic and I am scared it gives unrealistic expectations to impressionable young girls. Fuckboys don't change. If stunning, extremely experienced and sophisticated model like women have failed to capture their attention, I doubt an ordinary women with no sexual experience is likely to get men like them interested. If they have always been so shallow and only care about sex, they aren't going to change so suddenly.

What also annoys me (which is too common in YA ans NA) when every other women in the vicinity are portrayed to be "bitchy, desperate, gold digging sluts" who constantly throw themselves at the badboy even when they know he's in a relationship and are bitchy towards the good girl. Again its all a ploy to show just how special and unique the good girl is. Which is total bullshit in my experience

I don't know where these guys went to college, but in the 3 high schools i have attended and my university, most girls stay the hell away from arrogant, disgusting assholes, who use and discard women (or fuckboys like we call them). No one desperately wants to be with them. Only some girls who are as "bad" as them hang out with them. And i uncertainly have never seen girls throw themselves constantly at a dickhead who is taken.

Kara, I think you are completely fed up with playboys which i understand. But I am not too bothered by players as long as they are not arrogant assholes and stay celibate after meeting the heroine and the heroine is strong who has had enough good sex before him and there is no slut shaming. Then i don't see it as making the girl innocent to be worthy of the player's love but having a player bought down to his knees by a strong, confident women.
I also don't mind if authors write about virgin h and player H if they also write an equal number of experienced h and virgin H. Which is i am okay with penny reid or even katy mcgarry whose YA series has an equal number of virgin h and virgin H.

You got it right, Eva - I am totally done with fuckboys. Past, present, future whatever, they are off my list for good!

Eva wrote: " But then wouldn't you also want your love interest to be a virgin preferably."

Who says I wouldn't? Twilight is the book that started my obsession with romance. Virgin duos are the best.

Or would you want a guy who has slept with 100s of women and continues to have sex with OWs after meeting you and getting feelings or you.
Who says I would? I stated my distate for manwhores in my original post. But virgin heroines are a must.

I hate the double standards.
Sorry, no offense but it sounds as though you have double standards too. It's just a different set of double standards. If Hero were a virgin and she is sexually experienced then for him sex with her is all special but heroine is like "been there done that". And you'd be okay with it. That's a double standard.

Call me a prude but I think It's wrong when characters male or female have had one or more one-night stand, or sex with strangers.

And also because i do intend to be more sexually active in the future so i guess i don't relate to women who want to wait till marriage/true love as I like the idea of having casual sex.
"
I'm sorry but Why would you or anyone would ever want to have casual sex? You're risking your partner turning out to be a maniac and hurting you physically, maybe killing you. Even if you never made a mistake when using condoms you'd risk STD and pregnancy. I'm sorry, I just think you, and everyone, deserve more. Not talking about marriage but a monogamous relationship that leads to safe sex.

Kara wrote: "Corinne wrote: "Kara wrote: "And the H is almost never a virgin, which people wave off as "oh well he's a man, he's not supposed to be" and that sends a dangerous message about performative and toxic masculinity IMO."

I know what you mean and I don't like it much because then the virgin heroine appears to have been chosen because "she's not like the rest" and that's annoying. But there's a difference between, he's almost never a virgin, and he's always a manwhore. Virgins don't always come with manwhores. I just posted a recommendation request for virgin duos romance. If I get an interesting recommendation I can share it with you if you'd like.

Thanks, Corinne - I'm always down for dual virgins!

Kara wrote: "Thanks, Corinne - I'm always down for dual virgins!"

Kara, you should check this link out-
https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...
Maayan has the biggest list of virgin heroes I have ever come across- almost 500.

Holy crap - thanks Eva! I’ll definitely check that out once I’m back to reading straight-up romance.

I remember having this conversation about double standards and slut shaming in high school with a guy (i really disliked him and he was basically a fuckboy). He told this: "A key that can open many locks is really good and desirable whereas no want wants a lock that can be opened by many keys"
I was totally disgusting but speechless as well. Had no idea how to reply to this.

Eva wrote: "I remember having this conversation about double standards and slut shaming in high school with a guy (i really disliked him and he was basically a fuckboy). He told this: "A key that can open many..."

Yeah, I've heard the same justification before. Dudes like this should be beaten with sack full of locks.