WarpDrive’s Reviews > The Vandals > Status Update

Were they really bent on wanton destruction?

Hehehe... I thought everyone knew it to be a myth. :P

José Luís wrote: "Hehehe... I thought everyone knew it to be a myth. :P"

Maybe they were straight on wanton destruction?

Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, and that the available primary sources exaggerated the amount of disruption caused by the Vandal invasion: archaeological evidence points to some unquestionable disruption (so the invasion did cause some damage and even abandonment of some cities), but also to a surprising level of continuity in urban development in many areas, and even to a flourishing economy.
Some of the bad press that the Vandals got was due to clever propaganda by the Nicene Church hierarchy - dead set against the (initially) forceful imposition of Arian Christianity by the Vandals.
The real disruption was actually caused to Ravenna - the corresponding interruption of the tax revenue flow, from Carthage to what was left of the Western Empire, was a real blow.

So far, it is a really interesting book - I will post a more detailed review as soon as I am finished with it. What I like of this book is the very detailed and accurate analysis of archaeological evidence, and a careful interpretation of primary sources, to support the statements by the author.

Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, and that the available primary sources exaggerated the amount of disruption cau..."

Ooh! I didn't even know the Vandals were Christian!

Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, and that the available primary sources exaggerated the amount o..."

The great irony is that, as persuasively argued by the author, they got their Arian version of Christianity through their prior contacts with... the Roman army!

But being an Arian Christian in 429 AD was a bad thing as far as the Roman Empire was concerned - which is quite funny, considering that the Emperor Valens, who reigned in the East just 50 years before, was an Arian Christian...

Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, and that the available primary sources exaggerat..."

So when are we talking about?

Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, and that the available primary s..."

I guess you are asking about the chronology of the invasion ? The main dates are the following:
- AD 405/406 the famous crossing of the Rhine into Gaul
- AD 429 start of full blown invasion of North Africa
- AD 435 first treaty with the Empire (and establishment of the first form of Vandal State in North Africa
- AD 439 conquest of Carthage
- AD 442 second treaty with the Empire, and establishment of the Vandal State recognized by the Emperor
- AD 455 famous Vandal sack of Rome

I hope I answered your question ? Pls let me know if this is not what you wanted to know...

Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, and that the avai..."

Those Vandals got around a bit!

This is what I wanted to know in greater than expected detail; it also explains to me how come there were Germanic Christians around.

Fortunr, let me add an important detail - they broke the Roman tax spine by breaking revenues and grain incoming from Africa. :)

Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Were they really bent on wanton destruction?"

Actually, it appears that this was not really the case, a..."

Oh yes the Vandals did get around quite a bit. I always found it very fascinating how a Germanic "barbarian" group would successfully establish itself in a completely different cultural and climatic environment - it loosely reminds me of the much later Norman establishment in Sicily.
The refusal of the Vandals to "convert" to the Nicene creed is also interesting - and quite contrasting to the different path ultimately taken by other Germanic groups such as the Franks, the Lombards and the Visigoths, who all ultimately converted to the Nicene creed.

José Luís wrote: "Fortunr, let me add an important detail - they broke the Roman tax spine by breaking revenues and grain incoming from Africa. :)"

Oh yes they certainly did -

what is interesting is that the disappearance of the "annona" and associated state-subsidized transport of goods from Africa into the Empire did not significantly affect the North African economy; on the contrary, it provided a stimulus to diversify its economy, to focus more on higher-values products, and to find new markets, as confirmed by recent archaeological evidence.

It appears that, overall, this was a big net loss to the Empire, and a net gain to the North African economy. And the fact that it did hurt the Empire is also indirectly confirmed by the very expensive failed expedition of AD 468 (there was another one in 460, but it did not even start properly..).

Fortunr wrote: "José Luís wrote: "Fortunr, let me add an important detail - they broke the Roman tax spine by breaking revenues and grain incoming from Africa. :)"

Oh yes they certainly did -

what is interesti..."

Most of my knowledge of the Germanic tribes comes from Asterix and the Goths...

Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "José Luís wrote: "Fortunr, let me add an important detail - they broke the Roman tax spine by breaking revenues and grain incoming from Africa. :)"

Oh yes they certainly did -

w..."

:-) I love Asterix, even if I do not always like how the Romans are normally treated as a bunch of idiots... (I love the history of the Roman Empire, so I am a bit biased)

Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "José Luís wrote: "Fortunr, let me add an important detail - they broke the Roman tax spine by breaking revenues and grain incoming from Africa. :)"

Oh yes they cert..."

One or two of them were quite devious, though most were numb-skulls. They had some of the best names, though; Vexatious Sinusitis comes to mind...

Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "Robert wrote: "Fortunr wrote: "José Luís wrote: "Fortunr, let me add an important detail - they broke the Roman tax spine by breaking revenues and grain incoming from Africa. :)"

..."

LOL :-)