Scott Horton is the author of Provoked—the definitive book on the causes of the war in Ukraine. He’s been a stalwart voice against war for decades, and in fact his work has been part of the reason I’ve evolved from a typical CIA worldview to something more self aware and skeptical (or just call it accurate). It was a lot of fun and also an honor to join him on his eponymous show (plus an opportunity to say “eponymous”).

This conversation is with historian Aaron Good, author of the eye-opening American Exception, and former CIA officer John Kiriakou, author of the excellent CIA memoir The Reluctant Spy. I’ve appeared on both their shows before, and among the pleasures of talking to them is the lack of interruption—everyone takes time to build an idea before it gets examined and explored. True too, in fact, for Scott’s style, above.

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