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How in the world is Robert Heinlein on a list of feminist SF/F?

Rachel wrote: "How in the world is Robert Heinlein on a list of feminist SF/F?"

I'm with you on that. I'm very fond of Heinlein, but there is no way I'd ever categorize Time Enough For Love and The Notebooks of Lazarus Long as feminist.

Rachel wrote: "How in the world is Robert Heinlein on a list of feminist SF/F?"

I can think of maayyyyyyyyyyyyybe including Friday. Maybe. But not really.

Hmm. A lot of good sci-fi and fantasy on this list, but some titles I def. would not consider specifically feminist.

Hey everyone!

I only just now figured out how to see comments on these lists, and as the creator of the list I can tell you I did not put Heinlein on it. (I can't find him now, so maybe someone removed him in the two years since y'all first posted these comments).

I quite like some of his works --- I *love* Stranger in a Strange Land --- but you can't ignore the sexism in so many of them. Even Friday, his one book (that I know of) with a female protagonist, wouldn't pass muster with me because 1) there's the rape scene where Friday is being interrogated, and she just decides to lie there and enjoy it, as if that's possible, and 2) I remember distinctly getting the impression that Friday thought of herself as somehow owing sex, and sexiness, to men. I liked a lot of things about the character, and could relate to her in several ways, but anything to do with sex just left me cold. I can't think of a way to describe it that would explain it to someone who didn't feel that about Friday ...

I enjoyed friday. I thought the fact that she lay there was somewhat different than anything else I've read and probably better advice than just getting the crap kicked out of her because she was outnumbered. I thought she had more of a male mental voice, which could be just the way heinlein wrote, and why she didn't entirely work as a character. But it is been a while since I read that book, so I don't entirely recall everything about it.

Oh, I liked Friday --- it was just that one scene, and a few other random things here and there, that bothered me. They probably bothered me more just because I liked the book, and the character, so much overall, that the stuff that felt wrong stuck out more.

Thanks for making the list! It's interesting seeing what you initially included instead of what's accumulated. I've come to the conclusion people like pushing buttons. Anyway, I'm trying to add some fiction to my feminist reading. I definitely added some of your suggestions to my list. It's also fascinating to what people think of as "feminist". That's some of the joy and agony of the term though. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind some people's additions - particularly, with some of the YA stuff like On the Edge and Moon Called. I could be doing that proverbial book judging by a cover.

I am currently reading Cinder (no. 76). I'm over halfway through it. I like it quite a bit, and it does have a strong, smart, complex female lead. But I don't think it belongs on this list. Having a strong, smart, complex female lead does not automatically make a book feminist -- particularly when all the female authority figures in the novel are portrayed as thoroughly evil.

How is there no Doris Lessing on this list???

"Stranger in a Strange Land" is no. 107 (actually, one of several 107s).

I venture to say that the only thing remotely feminist about this book is that it does include female characters, at a time when most of the major science fiction writers (even the women) were leaving female characters out of their stories altogether, or granting them only the most miniscule of roles. But as for the actual portrayal of those women... well...

Yes, Stranger IASL is still there, and needs to go! unless it's some parallel universe edition where it is actually a feminist rather than an incredibly sexist book! I agree about Doris Lessing (Four-gated City, Memoirs of a Survivor.)

Apparently, a list of feminist books should be made by feminists and not random users. I know how that sounds. A list where no one can add books except one person would be good with the comment section as a way to make suggestions.

Sparrowlicious wrote: "Apparently, a list of feminist books should be made by feminists and not random users. I know how that sounds. A list where no one can add books except one person would be good with the comment sec..."

I second this idea.

I don't quite see how Oryx and Crake (#23) is feminist science fiction / fantasy? I thought the characters in the novel were meant...? Not even to mention the fact that personally I would not consider this science fiction or fantasy.

Nor am I sure why The Penelopiad (#63) is on this list? My idea of science fiction / fantasy is completey different, which is what made me wonder.

The Handmaid's Tale (#1) is not 'fantasy' either, as I see it, as in my book, fantasy is something completely different (The Lord of the Rings, I'd consider fantasy, for instance).

Don't get me wrong, they are all great books, but still, I have strong doubts about them being on this list.

Addition 6 November: I see the description has been altered/adapted. Still makes me wonder about Oryx and Crake though.

Regarding Oryx and Crake: I have a hard time considering any piece of fiction truly feminist unless there's an important, interesting female character in it somewhere, and from what I could tell from reviews, this book doesn't have one (though its sequels do). I can't really buy into the notion of "feminism without women."

Kelley wrote: "I can't really buy into the notion of "feminism without women." ..."

I agree...

An issue with "Persepolis" (#51): it's a wonderful graphic novel, and I agree that it's enjoyably feminist. What it isn't, is science fiction or fantasy. It is a memoir/autobiography.

Republic's Chosen features achieved equality on the basis of gender, sexuality, race, culture, and gender identity.

Republic's Chosen features achieved equality on the basis of gender, sexuality, race, culture, and gender identity.

Browsing through the list again. “Liberator (The Liberators Book 1)” doesn’t look very feminist to me. It looks like another man-saves-the-day story. That’s not a bad thing in and of itself, but it’s not feminist.

Some people seem to have a very broad definition of feminist books. Personally I recommend The Memoirs of Lady Trent. It doesn't just have a female character protagonist she also has to navigate inequality in the books. Also dragons. Who doesn't love dragons?