Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion

I want to talk about Valentine, but I'm a little reluctant because I'm still reading and I don't want spoilers either! So I'm opening the discussion topic but remind everyone that if you reveal anything major about him that you start that comment with a reference to the book in which it takes place. I want to discuss events in Warleggan--(view spoiler)[ his conception (hide spoiler)], The Black Moon--(view spoiler)[ his birth and first questions about paternity (hide spoiler)], The Four Swans--(view spoiler)[ further questions and suspicions about his paternity (hide spoiler)], The Angry Tide--(view spoiler)[ actions Elizabeth takes to maintain the plausibility that he was premature and the author's final blunt statement of paternity (hide spoiler)], his upbringing, his personality, his character.

Nature vs. Nuture
Do you think Valentine would have been a different person if his upbringing had been different? Or do you think his personality was due to a genetic predisposition? Or a combination of the two? Since this topic will span most of the series, be sure to mark any comments first with which book and then a SPOILER warning or hidden spoiler.

Every time Valentine appears in a scene I end up thinking, "OMG!! Valentine!!" He is so surprising, so intelligent, sarcastic, insightful, bitter, relentlessly honest. Yes, I think if George had completely accepted him and loved him, and if his mother had lived to shower affection on him, that he would have been a completely different person. I think his personality is both nature and nurture, Had he been loved growing up, I think he would have had a softer personality. On the other hand, the wealthy society of the time didn't encourage kindness or compassion, so who knows? Yet, there are scenes in which Valentine does show that he cares about certain people, there is a longing on his part to belong.

Tanya wrote: "I want to talk about Valentine, but I'm a little reluctant because I'm still reading and I don't want spoilers either! "

THE BLACK MOON (view spoiler)[ Regarding the first questions of his paternity, that he was born 9 months almost to the day of the VBT on May 9th is a big clue, and there's Agatha suggesting to George the name of Ross for the child. Then there's this about Ross & Demelza: "tempering their delight and relief...was the alien presence at Trenwith...only four miles away...The birth of Valentine was the latest thorn in the flesh...Neither said what was uppermost in their minds; it could never be uttered by anyone. But Caroline Penvenen wrote...'The brat is dark..." In the books Elizabeth is a blonde, and I don't recall George described as dark, but Ross was "The Dark Poldark." (hide spoiler)]

What does VBT mean? I am in the opinion that Ross did not rape Elizabeth.

Faith wrote: "What does VBT mean? I am in the opinion that Ross did not rape Elizabeth."

VBT = Very Bad Thing. It's a way to mention something without giving a spoiler. It assumes everyone who has read the book knows exactly what you are referring to.

Mara wrote: "(view spoiler)["tempering their delight and relief...was the alien presence at Trenwith...only four miles away...The birth of Valentine was the latest thorn in the flesh...Neither said what was uppermost in their minds; it could never be uttered by anyone." (hide spoiler)]

I'll have to go back and re-read those bits. I always figured that as smart as Demelza was, she could certainly COUNT!

Tanya wrote: "Mara wrote: "[spoilers removed]

I'll have to go back and re-read those bits. I always figured that as smart as Demelza was, she could certainly COUNT!"

Demelza does not suffer from illusions. She knows exactly what is going on, but she is infinitely practical and also devoted to Ross. And Ross, in spite of everything, knows instinctively that Demelza is his foundation.

Tanya wrote: "I want to talk about Valentine, ...his birth"

In the Black Moon there are also clues that Elizabeth (view spoiler)[ tried to miscarry. There's a passage where George wonders at her taking unnecessary risks such a horse riding and climbing ladders. Also, it seems to me that getting Rickets in a wealthy family points to a lack of care either in pregnancy or in infancy. Perhaps Elizabeth wasn't taking care to eat the right things because she didn't want this pregnancy to go to term. There's also her inability to bond with Valentine the way she bonded with her first child.

So I think that Winston Graham left these clues to show that Valentine did not get a good start in life which caused psychological, emotional and even physical damage.

(hide spoiler)]

More on Valentine's nurture in The Black Moon (infancy and early childhood)-page 418 in my Kindle reading version:
(view spoiler)[
"The maternal instinct was strong in Elizabeth -- but for various reasons her new son had taken longer to engage her deepest affections than her old. Geoffrey Charles had always been so close to her that to part with him at all had been agony at first and was scarcely better after two years of enduring it. Valentine had usurped his place without seizing on her love. But as he grew and he began to croon and talk and his dark eyes sparkled with mischief and he pulled at her frock and her hair and her face she began to feel some happiness and contentment at handling his little body and knowing he was hers."

GC has been going to boarding school for 2 years, after Valentine's first year when Morwenna was GC's governess, so Valentine is around 3. Valentine's own mother didn't feel love for him while he was an infant. Probably his only affection came from his nurse, Polly Odgers. (hide spoiler)]

maybe change the text "know he was hers" to "he was theirs" !

David wrote: "maybe change the text "know he was hers" to "he was theirs" !"

I've edited my comment to make it clear where I'm quoting from the book and they are not my own words.

Yeah I understand , just trying to make a feeble joke.