You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

One of the group reads for October is A Study in Charlotte by Brittany Cavallaro.

Please discuss the book in this thread.

Janice will be leading the discussion.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have read the book before or during October 2019.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread. Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread (include a brief summary of what you thought of the book).

A note on discussion: Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc.

In addition to this, the group reads are meant to be a "read along" so it is preferable that you discuss the book as you read rather than wait until you've finished the book.

And finally, discussion is not about just listing your thoughts. Please interact with the other group members, comment on their thoughts, and if they comment on yours, respond to them. This is what makes a good book discussion!

You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread.

Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions. See our spoiler policy
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy reading!

I will start reading the book after work today. I'm looking forward to it.

I am still hoping to add this one at the end of the month. I own it, but it is on my old laptop so I put in a request through the library for their audio edition. If it comes in on time, I'll be able to take it with me (and speed it up a bit) so it will be easier to get through on time.

I’m so glad that it is finally Oct and this thread is up lol
I finished my last book two days ago, and that afternoon while I was trying to select my next book . . . yep, my library hold came in for this one lol

I’m a little over half way at this point, and am quite enjoying both the writing and the story. And, I must admit that I am still trying to figure out who done it 🤷‍♀️but I am totally enjoying the ride lol

I started reading it tonight and am almost at the end of Chapter 3.

I like that the author is keeping the characters true to the original. (view spoiler)[ Watson narrates the story. Holmes has a narcotic addiction. The only difference so far is that Holmes is female.

I'm at the part where the police are questioning Watson and Holmes. Charlotte seems to have a motive in Doyle's death. (hide spoiler)]

Jenn wrote: "I’m so glad that it is finally Oct and this thread is up lol
I finished my last book two days ago, and that afternoon while I was trying to select my next book . . . yep, my library hold came in fo..."

You're moving right along! You'll be finished in no time. What are your initial thoughts of the book?

I'm really enjoying it Janice. (view spoiler)[It has a feel like the movies (R. Downey Jr.), light and fun, lots of action, but lots of deep material going on too - assault, murder, bullying, sexual harassment/assault/rape, drugs, etc. (hide spoiler)] There is a lot going on, but it manages to keep a light feel. I know I'm at work, but I wish people would stop asking me to do work so I can finish the book lol

I did not get an email notice yet, but I just checked my library requests and it indicates that my book is available for pick up. I will be heading over as soon as I get off of work.

I won't get a chance to listen to more today. It's been a hectic day. Hopefully, tomorrow will be better.

Got it! I read the first chapter before I left the library parking lot. Entertaining start.

I had a headache by the time I got home and took an Aspirin and a nap.

My granddaughter and I are watching The Dark Crystal mini series on Netflix. We have been watching an episode every night. Episode four was tonight.

I just finished reading chapter two. (view spoiler)[Holmes’ lab is #442 in the Science building, in a storage closet. Hmm, the number sequence - twice 221 - in a Broom closet? How about her brother’s name? Milo (for Mycroft). I know that there were sequences that mirrored a SH case in the clues when the two of them were in Dobson’s room, but I don’t want to read this story, the whole time looking for clues to other stories, or are we supposed to? I like the two of them and I am looking foreword to the rest of the story. I did like that the two families had kept track of the other - over the years too. (hide spoiler)] I do like the humor and sarcasm. “I missed London, like an arm or a leg”. (view spoiler)[Stupid too, but I liked that he had always wanted to be friends with her. (hide spoiler)]

I suspect it will be a lot like Stephen King's books in that there are little Easter eggs hidden throughout the story that refer to other books.

I couldn't sleep and did not want to listen to my audiobook and miss anything, so I read chapter 3, even though I was not going to. (I was going to limit myself to two chapters a day, until I finish the book that I am currently reading for my MM challenge.) I have two audiobooks on the go and am dying to start my monthly challenge book. I do not want to spoiler chapter 3 yet. I did not bring the book to work with me.

Janice - re your chapter 3 spoiler in message 5 (view spoiler)[You mean Dobson, not Doyle. Yes, she does. I kind of like the emotional play, but these people are college students. The conversations feel much more high schoolish. Some of the courses mentioned, like Biology and Chemistry, were offered in my high school. I took two years of Biology as a Junior and Senior. I know that this is a prep school - this is after 12th grade, right? Regarding Watson's watch. Why did he pull out his phone out to look at the time, instead of looking at his watch when he wok up from his nap in chapter 2? He wears it, but does not look at it? Things just keep going through my head. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished 😃
Somehow I doubt that I would have picked it up on my own, but I am so glad I did.
(view spoiler)[It had lots of nods to the original pair and their stories, and lots of great new content as well. This was very in keeping with the films for me, with everyone playing the long game, and a big reveal sequence lol.
I giggled at the threat of selling off his books one by one, starting with his autographed Neil Gaiman lol
And the Epilogue was the perfect finale lol (hide spoiler)]

Cherie, I believe that they are 16-17 year olds

Adding to Jenn's comment, I don't think Prep School is necessarily college level, but that's more an American designation than Canadian.

I finished to the end of Chapter 5

(view spoiler)[ I'm not sure that I like Charlotte. Watson (just like the original Watson) seems to be totally enthralled with her.

It seems that this book is a retelling of The Speckled Band. It's been mentioned in the book as a comparison to Dobson's death. I thought that it would be a retelling of A Study in Scarlet judging from the title. Maybe it's a mashup. (hide spoiler)]

I'm going to be away for a long weekend, leaving tomorrow and coming back Monday. I'll be listening to the audiobook while I'm driving and hopefully will be able to make some comments when I get some time to myself.

Okay, the younger age makes me feel better.
I’m reading chapter three again. (view spoiler)[ showing my ignorance here. What is the deal about the “empty plastic pouch” that Watson is going on about? He is in the hallway imagining Holmes and Dobson. And now he is crying. I admit that I like his father too. They are back at 442. The sandwich’s made me laugh. The normal conversation was typical SH speak. I had seen all of the stuff that related to The Speckled Band. It was never one of my favorite stories. So, someone is trying to frame them. Hmm. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter four. (view spoiler)[ haha. The everlasting gobstopper crack made me think of the sack of humbugs Watson had with him on a steakout one night. I think he offered one to Lestrade and Holmes had a fit. I remember looking them up because I didn’t know what they were. (just hard candies, like peppermints it horehound drops, I thought. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished chapter four. That was a long chapter. I must be slow because I’m not getting it yet, at least that is how it feels. (view spoiler)[ Is she a “bad” Holmes? Her vices got in her way? She can’t be a crook, that doesn’t make sense. Milo’s men??? (hide spoiler)]

I read chapter five last night. It was short.(view spoiler)[I thought Watson’s remark about Holmes, “She looked disturbingly like a girl.” , very rude. I was surprised and not surprised that she showed up wanting to go to the dance. Watson is a dolt! Why else would she have a dress? Another dead person? (hide spoiler)]

I just finished chapter six.
(view spoiler)[First thoughts: I am wondering if Janice has read the two original Doyle stories that are mentioned in this chapter yet? The room in the tunnel - just too strange. Where did the guy go? Who is setting Holmes up and why? Just to make Watson doubt her? How could Watson hear what they were talking to Holmes about in the police exam room? Mr. Watson set it all up so that James and Charlotte could meet and what, become friends?? Or more?? Oh, now she is “my Holmes” now and he is not going to doubt her again after she somehow got them out of the fix with alI the activity around Lena? (hide spoiler)]

Yey! I'm so happy we're reading this. It's been on my TBR for a while. I've read through chapter 3.

Chapter 1: (view spoiler)[I love the set up here. It's great that Watson and Holmes are both aware of each other and that the families have kept in touch over the years. I'm not sure about Watson yet, but Charlotte seems to be true to the original Holmes, and I'm happy about that. It makes a new series feel a bit like a familiar favorite. (hide spoiler)]

Chapters 2-3 (view spoiler)[That guy is a jerk. Okay, okay I know he didn't deserve to be murdered, but seriously, what a butt. His murder is interesting too. No Blood? No one saw anything? Pretty standard Holmes case actually. Sherlock never got the easy straight forward ones. Why should Charlotte? Was there ever a Sherlock Holmes story where he was suspected of committing the crime, though? It seems like there should have been, but I'm not coming up with it at the moment.

Watson has some major family drama going on at least in his own head. I'm thinking his father is not going to turn out to be such a bad guy based on his actions this far, but we'll see.

Holmes's lab is the only part of this story so far that I'm struggling with. The rest of it seems plausible to me even if a little far-fetched, but I can't see a school giving a student her own laboratory no matter how much they wanted her to attend there. I know that's minor and a plot point I shouldn't be stuck on, but it just doesn't jive for me. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie, your chapter 2 spoilers: (view spoiler)[I missed some of the references you mentioned. Good job for spotting the 442 number. I actually think it's kind of fun to keep an eye out for references to other books; although, I have to admit that I miss them most of the time. (hide spoiler)]

I'm still confused about the age thing. (view spoiler)[Watson got his watch for a 16th birthday present, but he's a new student at his school which would make a freshmen and Charlotte is a sophomore. They've got to be under 18 because they needed parental permission to be questioned by the police, but a freshman or sophomore in high school would be more like 14 and 15 I thought. And college would make them over 18. Who knows? (hide spoiler)]

I can’t tell what my last post said, nor the spoiler, since I am on the mobile app.

I just finished chapter seven. (view spoiler)[I think something is wrong with these two kids. Why did Watson get himself a concussion? Why is Holmes always tense? Why does Watson keep asking Holmes if August is dead? Why does she have vulture skeletons hanging in her lab? (hide spoiler)]

Finished chapter eight. I’m going to bed. (view spoiler)[ I’m being to think Holmes is mentally ill. Or I am, because I keep reading this stupid story. (hide spoiler)]

In chapter nine. (view spoiler)[ok, I am slow, but I finally got the plastic bag. "the empty plastic bag" - that the drugs came in, in this case oxy must be oxycodone? plils! I was caught up in the scars in the inside of her arm from one of the previous chapters. In my head, that pointed to needle tracks. So, she snuck down under the porch and swallowed some pills that she had in her shoes. Is that why she took her shoes and socks off? What did she do with her violin? (hide spoiler)]

I didn't. (view spoiler)[ "They'd write that on my tombstone." Now,- that was funny! This kid has no sense of self preservation! (hide spoiler)]

end of chapter nine (view spoiler)[Nope - this is all too much. I do not trust cheerful Holmes any more than junkie Holmes. But, who is being set up? The man in Byrony's apartment? (hide spoiler)]

Tricia - from your chapter 2/3 spoiler: (view spoiler)[No, I do not recall a case where Holmes was ever really accused of a crime, unless you read Lyndsay Faye Dust and Shadow: An Account of the Ripper Killings by Dr. John H. Watson. Actually, I think the author HAS. There have been two times in this book that there has been dialogue right out of her book (not to say that it was not in an original Doyle story though.). Yeah, the lab still bothers me. (hide spoiler)]

Jenn - from your message 7 spoiler (view spoiler)[Funny, I watched both of the R. Downey Jr. /Jude Law SH movies the weekend before starting this book. I also finally watched the 4th season of Sherlock on Netflix with my granddaughter. (hide spoiler)]

Janice - I hope you had a nice long weekend.

I just got home a short while ago, had some supper and will now attempt to get caught up on the posts in our group. I'm fading quickly so not sure how much catching up will happen.

Cherie, thanks for your wishes that I had a good weekend. It was a mixed bag. The purpose of the trip was to attend a family memorial service for my ex-husband who was killed in a car accident 2-1/2 weeks ago. The hardest part is being a support to my son while struggling with my own emotions. Yesterday was a lovely break from everything when my dad and I went on a day trip to the Ya Ha Tinda Horse Ranch back in the mountains. It's owned by the federal government but open to the public. The weather was beautiful, the picnic tasty, and the scenery spectacular. Very healing.

I finished the audiobook on my way to my dad's on Friday. I quite enjoyed it.

I think my comments left off at Chapter 5. So, Chapter 6 - (view spoiler)[ Another story of the original is included, The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle, when a student (who had a crush on Jamie) was found barely alive with a plastic blue jewel rammed down her throat. It appears that each incident will relate back to an original story. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7 - (view spoiler)[ The drug dealer hangs himself, or was it murder made to look like a suicide? I thought it was amusing when Charlotte acted so demure with the mortician but then got kicked out of the morgue when it was apparent that she was examining the body. Interesting that the body was not the man they expected him to be. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 8 - (view spoiler)[ Jamie is really hard on himself, isn't he? First the concussion and then multiple lacerations from breaking the mirror. But he did find a bug. Who is watching and listening? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9 - (view spoiler)[ I wonder how Charlotte is going to react when she finds out Jamie called Milo to come and help.

I think Jamie was surprised that he liked his stepmother and enjoyed his younger half brothers. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 10 - (view spoiler)[ Not sure if this was chp 9 or 10, so will put it here. Charlotte completely zoned out on drugs. This is YA, isn't it? Does that send the wrong message about drug use? If Charlotte can abuse drugs like that and not suffer severe consequences, will kids think it's safe?

I always suspected the nurse. When Elizabeth was strangled, she appeared almost too quickly. Plus the Energy Powder had been found in her infirmary. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11 - (view spoiler)[ Jamie and Tom are escorted back to their dorm to empty out the contents and it's revealed that Tom hid the bugging devices. It was rather crude of him to take a picture when Jamie grabbed the doorknob and was poisoned. The Adventure of the Dying Detective is the story referenced here and is the only one I haven't read. Bummer. I guess I know how it turns out now. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12 - (view spoiler)[ Jamie survives, the nurse was August's fiancé who wanted revenge on Charlotte. Hell hath no fury than a woman.... scorned? So is August still alive somewhere in hiding and working for Milo, or is that Milo's way of saying that he's been "taken care of"? (hide spoiler)]

I have only read 25% of the complete Sherlock Holmes stories, so I've likely missed a lot of "Easter eggs".

Tricia wrote: "I'm still confused about the age thing. [spoilers removed]"

Did the book state that (view spoiler)[ Jamie was a freshmen? I don't recall, but it seems to me that he wouldn't have started at the freshmen level, but at a level equivalent to the schooling he had in England. I could be mistaken, though. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie wrote: "I can’t tell what my last post said, nor the spoiler, since I am on the mobile app.

I just finished chapter seven. [spoilers removed]"

Questions, questions, questions... enquiring minds, and all that. (view spoiler)[Jamie got himself a concussion so that he could gain justified admittance to the infirmary. Anything less and he'd be discharged, and he wanted to search the infirmary. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie wrote: "Finished chapter eight. I’m going to bed. [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ I think Charlotte is narcissistic, just like the original Holmes. She may even be a bit of a sociopath. I think her personality is in keeping with the original Holmes. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6 is another long one with a lot going on. (view spoiler)[We get a couple more references to Sherlock Holmes stories here. I've read the one about the blue carbuncle, but I don't think I'd even ever heard of the other, and it's name is escaping me at the moment.

Now we have another body connected with Holmes and Watson. Whoever is framing them, if that's actually what's going on, is doing a really good job of it. I do think that Charlotte makes a good point to Detective Sheperd though when she says that it's all too obvious and that if she was the killer, she'd never leave such obvious clues.

The staging of the whole thing to get the detective to believe they weren't guilty was a little odd. Did she get Lena and someone else to willingly participate in setting that scene or is there something else going on? I can't decide.

Finally, Jamie's father is a character. I can't believe he got the school to pretend he was there on scholarship all because a Holmes paid his tuition and told them to. (hide spoiler)]

I finished chapter ten. (view spoiler)[mmmm, I’m feeling a little better after the episode under the porch. They have straightened things out and are working together again. I think I like Milo. It really is Bryony trying to frame Holmes. Oh, Tom selling them out to the writing teacher for money was awful. Then the closet door thing - I was shocked. The nurse turned the tables on them and has infected Watson. Janice - I suspect that you have not read the story about Culverton Smith yet, if you are only at 25%. If you watched the old Granada TV series, you may have seen the episode called The Dying Detective. It was later in the series, when Jeremy Brett was sick, but before The Devils Foot episode. He was very eccentric and yelled at Dr. Watson a lot. But, Watson still followed his directions. I feel terrible that James is sick. The bed scene was sweet and did make me believe that Holmes does care about him, but cannot allow herself to be touched - Dobson and maybe even for other reasons??? (hide spoiler)]

I could read the rest tonight, but strange as it sounds, I’m not ready for the end yet. I’m going to listen to Jane Steele for an hour or so. I’m enjoying it so far.

I’m sorry, Janice. I forgot about the service for your ex-husband. I’m glad you found time to be with your father and have a wonderful respite though. It is wonderful that you are so close to your father and can spend time with him. (view spoiler)[My father is on the east coast and refuses to see any of us. He and his wife made it impossible for us to visit them and now, he claims that he does not know us because it has been so long. He had a stroke a few years ago and refuses to talk on the phone now. His wife passed away and all of his family are gone except my brother and sisters. My sister and oldest niece are only a 5 hr drive away and she has begged to come and see him and he tells her no. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie wrote: "I’m sorry, Janice. I forgot about the service for your ex-husband. I’m glad you found time to be with your father and have a wonderful respite though. It is wonderful that you are so close to your ..."

It's hard when there is dissention in families like that. We've had our own struggles.

Cherie wrote: "I finished chapter ten. [spoilers removed]

I could read the rest tonight, but strange as it sounds, I’m not ready for the end yet. I’m going to listen to Jane Steele for an hour or so. I’m enjoyin..."

I thought chapter 10 was strong too. So much going on. I haven't read the short story, The Adventure of the Dying Detective yet.

I finished the book.

Chapter eleven (view spoiler)[I almost felt sorry for Bryony by the end. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter twelve (view spoiler)[ The whole tone/feel of the story has changed, or is it me? Less YA and raw emotions to comfortable, familiar, normal teen relations? What was #39? The familiar tables are turned and Holmes is taking care of Watson. Yes, I can look forward to Charlotte getting to know Jamie in London. (hide spoiler)]

Epilogue (view spoiler)[ I liked the wrap and her comments, but I still do not like the stupid vulture skeletons. LOL about her snake venom research! She has been clean a week. Sigh. Her remarks about Watson are reflective of his great...grandfather. Sherlock thought the same about his friend, just not the lovely and warm part, unless you read another story that I am reluctant to name here. (PM me and I will tell). Watson always said yes, to Holmes. (hide spoiler)]

Thank you, Janice - for nominating this book as a group read. I am adding the series to my list.

I just read through your spoilers, Janice.
You always pick out things to say that are so germane to the story. (view spoiler)[I liked your question about the drugs and what it may say to the younger readers. If they had read the original stories, (or watch the TV series Sherlockthey know that Sherlock did the same I doubt it will have any kind of effect. I do not think it gives them permission here. They are supposed to see the affect it has on Charlotte and remember that there are consequences, I think. Yes, I liked that Jamie liked his stepmother and his younger brothers too. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie wrote: "I just read through your spoilers, Janice.
You always pick out things to say are so germane to the story. [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ It's true that the real Sherlock used opium, but I'm not sure how popular the original works are with YA's today. It seemed to me that Charlotte didn't have many consequences. She came out smelling like a rose each time. That's what concerned me. Maybe I'm out to lunch. (hide spoiler)]

I'm dying to read more spoilers, but my reading time is limited this week. I'm going to try to carve out a chunk of time late tonight and hopefully make some progress. I'm loving all the references to the original Holmes.

Janice wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Sherlock did not use opium - he really abhorred it, although he spent a lot of time in the nefarious dens of that time - detecting. He injected cocaine - in a seven percent solution and occasionally used morphine. Dr. Watson frowned on it and berated him, but since it was legal at the time could do nothing to prevent him from buying it and using it. As far as seemingly giving the nod to today's youth, I do not think you are wrong to be concerned by any reference that appears to give it a nod. The author did clear it up, somewhat, by indicating that Charlotte had gone to rehab several times and was making another effort to throw it off at the end. (hide spoiler)]

Tricia wrote: "I'm dying to read more spoilers, but my reading time is limited this week. I'm going to try to carve out a chunk of time late tonight and hopefully make some progress. I'm loving all the references..."

No rush, Tricia. We will be here as long as you want to comment.

Cherie wrote: "Janice wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

[spoilers removed]"

I assumed (view spoiler)[ it was opium because that was the drug of choice during that time period. Obviously, I wasn't paying much attention. (hide spoiler)]

I finished the book last night. I'm reading the Ebook and expected there to be a lot more chapters than there actually were; so the end kind of sneaked up on me.

Chapters 7:12: (view spoiler)[Okay, this book did not turn out to be quite what I anticipated although I did like it very much. Judging by the age of the characters, I expected a typical YA novel, and in some ways it was. However, some of the themes and the language in the book were much more suited to adults.

The relationship between Holmes and Watson started out mirroring that of the original duo, but in latter chapters, it blossoms into something else. Honestly, that part didn't work for me, and I thought it could have been left out. It seems like any time you have a young boy and young girl in a story though, authors choose the romantic route. It kind of makes me crazy.

The mystery itself was pretty solid, I thought. I suspected the nurse but not the Moriarty connection, and of course, there is the set up for continuing the series when he isn't caught.

I was sad about the English teacher. I really wanted him to turn out to be an innocent good guy. It's hard to believe that he would enlist another student to bug Watson's room just to get a story. That and a few other points in this book seemed a little outrageous to me.

Overall, I liked this one and will probably continue with the series. (hide spoiler)]

Ah, Yes, Janice I think you've got it. I don't think the book did say (view spoiler)[he was a freshman. I totally overlooked his schooling in England. Thanks for clearing that up for me. (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "Cherie wrote: "I just read through your spoilers, Janice.
You always pick out things to say are so germane to the story. [spoilers removed]"

[spoilers removed]"

I'm with Janice on this one. (view spoiler)[The drug use really bothers me if we're looking at this for a YA audience. Watson's reactions to it bother me as well. I know it's a book and not necessarily meant to be a teaching tool, but I don't want it in young people's heads that they should just stay beside there drug-addicted friends nursing them through the bad times and not really doing anything to help them get better. Drugs are enough of a problem in our culture without our YA novels giving them a green light, or if not a green light, then at least not very severe consequences. (hide spoiler)]

Tricia wrote: "I finished the book last night. I'm reading the Ebook and expected there to be a lot more chapters than there actually were; so the end kind of sneaked up on me.

Chapters 7:12: Okay, this book di..."

Re: English teacher - (view spoiler)[ I agree. That was smarmy. It was so obvious when he was questioning Jamie about Charlotte. The first thing I thought of was that if he'd pressed hard enough on the paper, he'd have a copy underneath. Old trick, long overused. (hide spoiler)]

We keep working over the misuse of the YA label, and I'm not agreeing with its use in this case. Tagging a book as YA based entirely on the age of the MC(s) without regard for the content of the book is completely misleading.

Nothing wrong with the YA genre, or the content of this book, but if books were tagged appropriately, more consistently, the tagging system would be more beneficial to the reading public.

Jenn wrote: "We keep working over the misuse of the YA label, and I'm not agreeing with its use in this case. Tagging a book as YA based entirely on the age of the MC(s) without regard for the content of the bo..."

It's a problem with other genres too. In this case, Study in Charlotte was offered as a freebie with the SYNC summer program for teens 13+. I include myself in the "+" :)