bookslayer’s Reviews > Lancelot-Grail: The Old French Arthurian Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation, Volume 1: The History of the Holy Grail and The Story of Merlin > Status Update

I hear you, but allow me to play as the advocate for the defense. The non-obedient woman attached to an obedient man is a trope that pervades much of Western literature because it is the central imagery of the OT between God and Israel, and in the NT this is developed with Christ and his new wife the Church. Not to excuse Solomon’s hypocrisies of which he had many, but reading Arthur and Guinevere, or Merlin and Nimue, in such a light does make it less frustrating to me. Medieval texts care less about plot than symbolism (which isn’t to say they never care about plot, but symbolism will nearly always win). You’ll see this a lot in Malory too, but Malory even does the favor of explaining his symbolism right after.

Arthurian characters get a pass because I am actually here for them :D

Fair enough! Personally, I am very fond of Guinevere. I guess I’m curious which OCs are frustrating you?

I'm actually not aware if they're OCs, they're probably biblical characters, and this is my secular upbringing speaking... It's king Evalach/Mordrain the statue-fucker, his wife the servant-purchaser, his wife's brother, his wife brother's son and their adjacent gang of christianity spreading acquaintances whom I called OCs lol
I am basically reading all this for the sake of Lancelot and Guinevere because I accidentally discovered that the majority of my favorite romance tropes originated from them. I feel like Heinrich Schliemann lol

bookslayer wrote: "I'm actually not aware if they're OCs, they're probably biblical characters, and this is my secular upbringing speaking... It's king Evalach/Mordrain the statue-fucker, his wife the servant-purchas..."

Much of Joseph of Arimathea's legendary connection with the Grail is apocryphal; in the New Testament, his role is quite small. Evalach/Mordrain is similarly an apocryphal figure never mentioned in the Bible; having not bothered to read the gnostic texts, though, I can't say how much that might have influenced early Celtic and English Christianity among those such as the Ceile De and the eventual writer(s) of the Vulgate Cycle. So I think he is quite literally an OC... haha. Now I have something to "look forward to" when I read this.

This is actually surprising, I'm always ready to admit I know almost nothing of the Bible besides the Grail-as-Royal-Blood discourse popularized by Dan Brown xD

bookslayer wrote: "This is actually surprising, I'm always ready to admit I know almost nothing of the Bible besides the Grail-as-Royal-Blood discourse popularized by Dan Brown xD"

Totally! Lots of neat little Easter eggs in Arthuriana, beyond the Grail discourse. I would suggest reading about King David briefly, beyond the sling incident with Goliath; I promise you that much of Arthuriana references David and Solomon, even if obliquely. You might also want to look into Longinus, since his spear is attached to the Grail Legend and the Fisher King. Like Joseph of Arimathea, Longinus' role is quite short in the Gospels, but has been extended in apocryphal texts and church tradition. Alas, we cannot DM each other, but I'm always happy to talk about these connections; a baseline familiarity with them makes Arthuriana that much richer, in my opinion.

I know David from How Are the Mighty Fallen by Thomas Burnett Swann but Longinus being a person and not the spear itself is unfortunately brand new information :'D

I'd love to DM honestly

bookslayer wrote: "I know David from How Are the Mighty Fallen by Thomas Burnett Swann but Longinus being a person and not the spear itself is unfortunately brand new information :'D

I'd love to DM honestly"

Happy to help! I love discussing this sort of thing, and it's always an equivalent exchange; I had never heard of "How Are the Mighty Fallen" before. I'm glad it gave you some background! I hope it did cover Bathsheba; the portrayal of Ygerna/Igraine is somewhat templated off her, or at least merged with medieval conceptions of her in later romances. The interesting thing about Arthur is that sometimes he's David and sometimes he's Solomon... (Except in the May Day Massacre, when he's inexplicably Herod)

GoodReads removed the DM feature about a week ago :( But if you want to converse over email or Instagram or Discord, let me know. I can comment the relative handle if you are able to delete the comment fairly soon after you see it (just don't want my personal information floating around the Internet)

How Are the Mighty Fallen is a crossover between the greek and the biblical; Ahinoam is David's mother, she's basically the protagonist and a siren queen, Goliath is a cyclops, and David and Jonathan have their short doomed romance because they follow the destiny intended for them and don't ever try to wiggle out. It's one of those books where the style and the poetry are everything and I don't think it gave me any meaningful lore lol

bookslayer wrote: "How Are the Mighty Fallen is a crossover between the greek and the biblical; Ahinoam is David's mother, she's basically the protagonist and a siren queen, Goliath is a cyclops, and David and Jonath..."

Awesome, I sent you a friend request over on Discord. I think I'll give my thoughts on Ahinoam, Bathsheba, etc. over there to avoid making your comments becoming endless :D