⚔Irunía⚔ > Status Update
⚔Irunía⚔
added a status update
NOT BOOK RELATED thoughts, bugging my mind: previously I felt closer to people who shared my views. Now I rather relate to those who have different opinions but are ready to listen and have a dialogue. I've always had that thought somewhere subconsciously, but now when I spelled it out for myself, I realize our "progressive" society is as democratic as it was (not) in the 16th century ⬇️⬇️⬇️
— Aug 27, 2021 04:22PM
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Yeah sometimes I like to hear people who disagree their prospective however I’ve learn there’s too much stubborn people out there and their opinion is truly rubbish in the end so I tend to just stay in a bubble and avoid those people ..
"I realize our "progressive" society is as democratic as it was (not) in the 16th century"I was thinking about this not so long ago. I hear a lot of people always speak of tolerance and how far we've come as a society which is partially true but really nothing has changed much, we are just a little better at hiding everything under pretences.
*abt ur comment*
It's crazy how you put that so perfectly. I've observed that behaviour in so many people around me (including myself). It's really difficult to have a conversation or really any progress in life when you never bother to understand, or in the least hear opposing opinions. I've actually had a conversation like that with a family member because she always viewed my beliefs (which she disagreed with) as personal attacks (they were in fact political, because of course those are at the root of all hostile discussions😂).
Even I many times felt somewhat offended when someone expressed a thought that COMPLETELY contradicts mine. But then came to an understanding which I later explained to the family member that you can disagree with a person's opinion without instantly painting it as bad/wrong. To think how many opinions in history have been labelled as completely outrageous that now are accepted as the norm and vice versa.
Listening to different opinions, and especially the ones I disagreed with ended up being pretty educational for me. Like that discussion we had on prostitution😂some enlightening stuff and our views weren't completely aligning on that subject either.
"Tolerance??? Empty word tossed around and having no real substance."
It's actually funny you mentioned that....because I found that the most "tolerant" people in my company always refuse to acknowledge an opinion they think is "wrong".
Basically....
tolerance - I respect your opinion ONLY if it aligns with beliefs that are socially accepted as "right" (might get in trouble for saying this but whatever😬)
Anyways, you're the reason my brain is still not rotting from lack of use. The subjects you bring up is the only exercise it gets.
+ plz take a shot every time I say the word "opinion"🤦♀️
tolerance - I respect your opinion ONLY if it aligns with beliefs that are socially accepted as "right": lol, Overton window:DDDThat's how I feel about tolerance and, weirdly enough, people considering themselves 'tolerant' in my circle are physically unable to listen to anything that goes beyond the realm of their 'progressive' beliefs too. 😂😂 Too bad confidence doesn't equate to high intellectual capacities:D
I actually love having conversations with people who disagree with me, because I enjoy training my argumentative skills and I want to see things in a new light, which is possible if the person manages to sound logical and has strong points. But as you've pointed out, sometimes it's really difficult to stay calm and impartial and I too, of course, have that tendency to get defensive about particular views and consider my opinions superior to my opponents' (which is not cool and I do my best to stifle that kind of reaction 😂). Particular topics are too deeply ingrained in our personalities so it remains difficult for us to be able to not feel personally attacked by opposing opinions or to not attack them. 😇 Actually if one of the opponents is aggressive, stubborn and thinks you're dumb by default, the discussion is impossible. I had similar experience with one of my relatives. I wanted to get my point across AND at least try to understand his reasoning, but he bawled his head off as if I chopped his leg off and I thought that for the sake of my sanity I'd just stop pretending I wanna have that conversation 😂💀
But girl your thoughts really do align with mine.
we are just a little better at hiding everything under pretences - i felt this in my guts 🛐
A dumb, book related example: 70-80s romance books are very patriarchal, but, surprisingly, they are not wrapped up in a fluffy package. Romance now : same patriarchal shit presented in a romantic light and wrapped up in feminists' clothes. It's less offensive and outrageous and harder to detect, but give me any 'feministic' romance book and I'll find 1001 reasons why it actually is not, because our society is still omnipresently patriarchal in more subtle and sophisticated ways.
Look, even on GR, every time the romance community comes across a male reader of romance, they start gushing and admiring a male doing regular, NORMAL things. Single dads are hot and admirable, while single mothers are Normal, regular women.
Anyways, thank you Anna. I love how you take time to write such insightful responses. I love them. I know I can count on you if I want to have an interesting and comfortable conversation, no matter whether we agree on things or not 🥰🖤
Irunia, it’s very rare to find such a good match regarding books’ pov. On the other side, if you do, there is no challenge. As long though as you read similar ones, then that’s a good combination. 🥰
You're forgetting one important thing: some people are here for one specific purpose, which is just to enjoy a hobby that interests them and to live and let live. They're specifically not interested in engaging in civil discourse and debates. They've got real life responsibilities and duties, looking after families, kids and pets. Goodreads is their happy place where they can enjoy some downtime. I fall into this category.
I used to have lots of time to sit on my ass, phone in hand, clowning around on Goodreads, in the early days before my son was born. Now time become a most valuable commodity, I have a backlog of books that need to be reviewed but I don't stress about it because it's a hobby; not a job. So I can't waste time engaging in*civil discourse* with people who probably won't give a fuck what I think anyway 😂.
I just want to enjoy Goodreads among people that I get along with and I refuse to let anyone fuck with that experience. I never forced myself to engage with people I didn't like when I was in high school and at college. Why should I start now ? I know I sound like a selfish cunt, but I'm not gonna lie in an effort to make myself look like Mother Teresa's long lost soul sister. That's why I deliberately stay within my comfort zone. I can't pretend to play nice with people who annoy the fuck out of me so the best thing to do is to stay away from such folks. They deserve to enjoy their separate Goodreads experience just as much as I do with mine.
My Goodreads corner is a peaceful and happy place because it's been designed to be that way with a small group of friends on my friends list.
It's a somewhat artificial means of maintaining a *cosy and happy* Goodreads experience but it works for me, because the most important thing is that I don't need to prove anything to anyone online.
It's somewhat cold-hearted, selfish and clinical but it's my way of creating a tiny online corner that works for me.
Anyway, that's my selfish but honest opinion on this issue.
Hey Ivy! Saw your comment and couldn't help replying😅 I get what you're saying. I myself see a lot of opinions I disagree with on Goodreads and never really engage with those people. I don't think that's what Irunia is talking about though. She mentioned that this is not book related thoughts. She was really talking about life situations where you find people with beliefs that don't align with yours, and get a choice on how to approach those people. You can ignore them out of hostility or just because you don't feel particularly argumentative that day. Or you can acknowledge your differences and have a debate (again it can either be attacks or a respectful conversation). And unfortunately most people choose the former in both situations, especially those we liked to call the most "tolerant".
Simple opinions like books or music are just easy examples. I'm talking about the beliefs that make up who you are as a person: Cultural, political, religious, personal etc...
Mareeva wrote: "Hey Ivy! Saw your comment and couldn't help replying😅 I get what you're saying. I myself see a lot of opinions I disagree with on Goodreads and never really engage with those people. I don't think ..."My attitude is the same, when it comes to real life. I don't put on a fake persona when I'm online because I'm not interested in making people like me, because they'll be liking a *me* that doesn't exist and that's the most pitiful thing ever 😂.
As far as real life is concerned: I don't need to understand/debate/like people in order to co-exist peacefully with them and I've been through enough *civil discourse* with people, with respect to real life difference of opinions/political views/philosophical beliefs/cultural beliefs etc., to know when it's just an ego trip used by some individuals who love the sound of their voices and aren't genuinely interested in what others have to say, because it's more about them flexing their intellectual muscle in an effort to get attention. That's what I've noticed in real life and online.
These people are more interested in making others listen to what they have to say and I have no time to fake interest in that.
And, to be honest, I'm not interested in changing anybody's opinions ( on Goodreads and in my real life ) about anything or having my opinions changed by them. Everyone deserves to live a life that makes him/her satisfied, even if he/she believes in the exact opposite things I believe in. When I say I'm all about live and let live, I stand by that in all aspects of life. If that means I have to cut some people loose in real life, because it gets too toxic interacting with them in a meaningful way, then I'll do that.
I have friends and relatives that I get along well with, in a VERY superficial way because we co-exist peacefully and we never discuss these issues because we know it'll end in a stalemate since both sides are so opposite in every way. Sometimes you have to know when not to push people to discuss certain things/issues. Real life isn't like a cosy university group tutorial, held after your lecturer has just discussed the finer points of Socratic debate. Sometimes it's healthier to respect people by giving them space, refusing to engage with them if they start debating politics etc and just chill out.
It doesn't solve the problem but it makes life easier a lot more cordial and pleasant. But then again I've never been one to be overly concerned about anything that's not directly related to my own personal comfort 😂. And I am not ashamed to admit that, because like I said, I've never had a desperate desire to have people like me.
Yes I agree with most of what you've said😂 but I didn't say you have to argue with people every day, change their opinions or try to make them like you. As I've said you can ignore or engage and both can be done either with hostility or respect. Irunia's initial message was implying that categorising people as bad or good based on similarity of opinions is the root of the problem in many situations.
Ivy H: Carmen, it's a bit difficult for me to respond to your comment, since I fail to see the logical link between my 2 original comments and yours ✌🏻, to be honest, but I'll just comment on a few things you said and I previously said:) As I mentioned in the status, this discussion thread is NOT book related or even GR related for that matter, I was talking about rl situations and my personal, with big P, experience and how I deal with people who have different views (that's why your comment confused me:D).
You see, I realized only recently that I don't have to dislike people or find them annoying or get defensive if they have opposing views/opinions. I used to be like that and still notice myself feeling that way sometimes. But now I try to be more casual about the whole thing and not divide the world into black and white. Which is basically the main thought of my original messages. Your art of not giving a fuck about anyone/anything not directly related to you is admirable, but it certainly isn't my style (I still need to reach that level of wisdom?) .
Being a social creature that doesn't live in an abandoned haunted house in the middle of nowhere, I'm forced to converse with different kinds of people at work/uni/home/social events. Not all of them are my soulmates when it comes to beliefs and values we human being deem important, so I thought it would be nice for me to develop such a strategy and stop dividing people into good and bad ones based on some flimsy criteria. Since I cannot stay absolutely indifferent.
In regards to what you said... firstly, I don't think your approach to GR is cold hearted or clinical or whatever you called it.
That's up to you to do what you want: engage only with ppl you get along with + review books. Like... ok?? I mean it's pretty logical to do those things on GR. That's basically what the majority of us is doing here no? 😂 I'm not sure I needed your patronising reminder of that but I guess thanks?
That being said, I agree to disagree with you on some other things. More like, I don't think it's cool to equate engaging in *civil discourse* here to clowning around, made, apparently, by those irrelevant people whose time is not a valuable commodity. Nice category division you outlined there, btw. 😂👌🏻If both parties are willing to discuss things outside the realm of books here and at the same time don't overreact, stress or labell ppl as annoying only because they don't agree with their views... Why not? Debates can be interesting and enlightening. And if someone doesn't have the need to debate and discuss things, they quite logically stay in their comfort zone. Which is totally reasonable too. If someone wants to just let their thoughts out? Why not. Don't we all need it sometimes that other people listen to our opinions? I think as a person who writes reviews and publishes them, you can relate to this.
We, folks, without children to take care of, without a care in the world (I guess I fall into that loveable category:D) and any real life responsibilities on our shoulders :DDD occasionally have that basic need for different kinds of social interactions on the Internet and in real life that include that kind of stuff.
I'm genuinely intrigued by what exactly in my message propelled you write this, though: I never forced myself to engage with people I didn't like when I was in high school and at college. Why should I start now ? I know I sound like a selfish cunt, but I'm not gonna lie in an effort to make myself look like Mother Teresa's long lost soul sister
Literally nothing in my original comment says or even hints that you should start lying( about what I didn't understand) or force yourself to interact with annoying ppl? I don't care about what any of my friends chooses to do. I was talking about the whole black /white division of the world and people in it as a major problem when it comes to reaching a social agreement (among lil social groups and large communities), which has nothing to do with faking anything online. 😂😂😂 I wanted to get across a little more global and deeper thought than that. 😏
Back to ur sentence, it felt like a jab at me tbh... But it probably wasn't, though? :)
As I've said, I fail to see the link between fake online persona and pretending to be nice to "annoying people" that you mentioned quite a few times in ur comments AND what I said about my personal views in regard to the concept of tolerance in the 21st century and how now I prefer conversing with people that have it in themselves to not get offended by the existence of so many concepts/ideas/views not close to their hearts and souls. Living over coexisting any time of day: I'd rather like ppl who I engage with, respect ones I don't fully agree with and avoid others, who cannot help being toxic and aggressive.
I agree with you Carmen, I just can’t argue on goodreads, I like the platform, meeting people who also enjoy reading and especially those who like reading similar novels and can give some warnings lol if the novel has triggers that we all agree on. I used to get into petty debates with people in real life and online, but I don’t anymore, especially with the havoc that has broken around in the world, I like to keep company with close friends and my main online platform is goodreads, it’s a safe haven. Similarly I still have so many books on backlog and I totally understand with your son and family, it’s better to spend time wisely and especially with family and of course with your hobbies and the things you love.
On the other hand, Irunia I think debating is healthy as a youth especially when you are in your early 20’s, that’s how you learn so many things and meet people of different groups. I know I have a best friend and we are polar opposites, we met at a clinical rotation 5 years ago but we don’t agree on a lot of things, plus she doesn’t read novels at all, she prefers movies or shows and Netflix to novels any day, while I love reading and can read for a straight month if I had the time. And some of our views on religion and so many other things are different but we never fight because we talk about things we agree on as well and if we don’t agree, we always respect each others views. I think as we grow older, we realise when we have to respect someone’s boundaries and feelings, if we don’t, as Carmen said, we’ll reach a stalemate where we are on opposite ends and sometimes those arguments can turn nasty and just leave a bad taste overall.
Although you should decide on what you like, if you like to debate on politics and global issues, those are also important in life and sometimes talking to people with polar opposite views are the way to go. I have done that during my college days and sometimes those debates led to coldness between friends which I couldn’t stand so I left those days behind but surprisingly I am still friends with some of those people even though we had radically different views.
⚔Irunía⚔ wrote: "Ivy H: Carmen, it's a bit difficult for me to respond to your comment, since I fail to see the logical link between my 2 original comments and yours ✌🏻, to be honest, but I'll just comment on a few..."Firstly, if I wanted to make a jab at you, I'll come right out and do it. I don't use passive aggressive comments to make jabs at anyone. But if that's your interpretation from the sub text of my comments, then I'll leave it at that.
My clowning around comment wasn't aimed at you and how you spend your time. I was literally talking about myself because that's what I used to do and anyone who has read my reviews from pre 2018, will know what I mean. So forgive me for inadvertently treading on your sensitive soul. I shall endeavour not to be inadvertently patronizing 😉.
My self deprecating Mother Teresa comment was in response to your comment about wanting to make an effort to engage with people on the opposite side of the ideological/political/cultural etc spectrum. You're obviously so much more selfless and nicer than I am because you're willing to do that. I'm not and that's the point that I was making.
There are many people who feel like me; people who are just so tired of the continuous back and forth with those who have opposite ideological views etc., that we're simply unwilling to extend the energy - not even in an effort to create a more positive real life image or online image. But some people aren't willing to come out and admit it because it makes them sound like selfish creatures.
I'm not a bullshitter and I know that optics is everything online these days. People deliberately present themselves in a positive way when they're online but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're genuinely that nice, selfless and sweet. Maybe I'm too much of a cynic ? I could've written the perfect response that would have been politically correct, sweet and oh so acceptable, that it's worthy of smiley face emojis.
But that's not how I am. I don't say what I think people want to hear, just to be part of a grand online love fest. I'm sorry if you're offended by my comments but I assumed, when you stated that you're open to engaging in discussions with people who have opposing views, that you wouldn't have been offended.
Just to clarify: I was responding ONLY to your comment about your willingness to engage with people outside your inner circle. My response is that I'm not willing to waste my time because I don't need to be best friends with everyone in order to live a fulfilling life, in real life and online. And my subsequent comments were explanations to justify why I feel like that. It wasn't an attack on you. It was me simply explaining that my strategy is the exact opposite. Different coping mechanisms don't mean that one is better than the other.
They're just different. That's my point.
Kudos to you for your willingness to engage with everyone, if that makes you happy. I'll stay with my inner circle and co-exist peacefully with everyone else. We each have to do what's best for us to navigate this world, in the way that's most conducive to our respective happiness. There's no single solution for everyone. Individuals need to do what's in their best interest and what works for them. And that, in my humble opinion, is perhaps the most realistic way of being *tolerant* in the world in which we live.
Izzy wrote: "I agree with you Carmen, I just can’t argue on goodreads, I like the platform, meeting people who also enjoy reading and especially those who like reading similar novels and can give some warnings ..."Yes, that's my point: sometimes some of us need to do what's best in our own interests because at the end of the day, we're responsible for our own emotional and mental health.
I have a neighbour ( the one who's been loaning me her huge boxes of Bollywood DVDs 😜 ) and she votes for the other political candidate. We cannot see eye to eye on politics at all. We'll probably kill each other if we ever discuss politics because we both feel strongly about the candidate we voted for.
So, last August when we had our general election, we both agreed, without making a big deal out of it, that politics was gonna be the invisible creature in the room, that we're never gonna acknowledge when we have to talk to each other.
This agreement has always helped to cement our relationship. I think I might have even mentioned to you once, that whenever my son needed an emergency babysitter, because I had to step out and he was too little to take him out for a short shopping trip, that my neighbour would look after him. Well, she's the same woman - the same woman who would end up in a huge fight with me if we ever discussed politics.
So my point is that sometimes it's healthier to avoid engaging in certain discussions in order to maintain a pleasant relationship. And that's why I firmly believe in not going outside my comfort zone or prompting anyone to move outside theirs.
They're also different cases where it's just impossible to even get along with people as friends and that's when polite co-existence seems best.
I know how angry I get when people try to push their opposing beliefs on me. I'm too mulish to change the way I feel about lots of things. And that's why I put myself in other people's shoes and I never engage them if I sense that their views are ideologically opposite to mine because I don't want to put someone in a position where they're angry because they think I'm pushing my opinions on to them. Plus it can be interpreted as condescension and nobody likes to be condescended to.
Carmen, first of all thank you for your endeavour to not sound inadvertently patronising and not tread on my sensitive soul. I appreciate that kind of effort, especially from a cynic like you 😉Also now once I have your clarifications, I may rest assured that your comments, which I initially found confusing, weren't a jab at me. You might know that online messages can be deceiptively looking and wrongly interpreted, just as online personalities, so instead of assuming things and getting offended, I asked you directly and now I feel like I understand your message better. And as you might have noticed, it wasn't your opposing opinions, which don't sound as opposing to mine as you make them out to be 😂, that felt like a jab at people who choose to act unlike you but your self-deprecating comments, evidently. Forgive me my confusion.
Again, I don't have much to say about your the substance of ur comment because I agree with how you worded your opinion in that last comment (and even if I couldn't relate to anything you said at ll, it would be totally fine, Id not cry ugly tears over completely different approach to your own life lol) ... tho it still seems a lil far fetched from my original messages but WHATEVER. 😂
My self deprecating Mother Teresa comment was in response to your comment about wanting to make an effort to engage with people on the opposite side of the ideological/political/cultural etc spectrum - that's nice, but I didn't make such a comment in the first place, though now at least I understand where you're coming from. I said something remotely similar in response to your comment, but the ones I posted origanally had nothing to do with the things you started talking about. I literally said that the lack of proper dialogue due to white/black division of the world is :
That's what I see happening in my inner circle (on a regular basis, for many years).
thus, I have some communicating problems with some ppl from my inner circle. So again I felt like your comments were the answers to the things I never even said in the 1st place, so the girl here was a bit confused. 👀
Just to clarify: I was responding ONLY to your comment about your willingness to engage with people outside your inner circle. My response is that I'm not willing to waste my time because I don't need to be best friends with everyone in order to live a fulfilling life, in real life and online.
Again, I agree with what you say (shocker I know ) but this comment feel like a response to something I didn't even say and that is somehow opposing to my thoughts (when it's not) . 😂And I think engaging with people outside the inner circle isn't an effort to be best friends with everyone anyways. It's very much like our conversation right now: you're not my inner circle, I'm not your inner circle, but we are still having that conversation. It's not us making an effort to become best friends proving which point of view is better. As much as you don't need to love me 😂 to have that conversation, I don't need to love you and be best friends with you to engage in this convo. Like you said, it's coexisting peacefully.
But again, that wasn't even anything I really wrote about in this post and I was feeling strange when confronted with thoughts that are supposed to be so very different from mine, but actually are not that opposing.
Petty fights over political /religious any issues is not something I condone and surprising as it may sound I don't engage in them and don't recommend doing that to anyone. Normal discussions and debates are OK as long as everyone realizes that it's just a form of communication and not a contest. Unlike petty fights with stubborn people it's not about wasting time and energy. I personally make that distinction, anyways. Again, I didn't say it's necessary or anything. We choose people we're willing to discuss certain things with and ppl with whom we're willing to keep silence about particular things because we cannot have a discussion without strong negative feelings involved. Reasonable..
And everything you said is as politically correct as it comes.
I was initially confused by you assuming I have copying mechanisms of some unrealistically selfless person, but on second thought I decided I might as well give carte blanche to everyone to interpret my comments to their heart's content:D
I'm just generally not very fond of people putting words into my mouth is all
Izzy, just to make things clear, not a single soul on this thread prompted or encouraged anyone to pick up fights on GR 😂😘I just said that im willing to discuss things with people who have different opinions if they don't act like I killed their favourite dog and I'm in the mood to engage. Be it my inner circle or random strangers. Discussions can be productive and interesting only when people don't get stressed about it, so I fully support your decision not to argue on GR if you feel uncomfortable 👍🏻
I would really love it if people stopped dragging others in petty fights where ppl are divided into bad and good ones instead of having normal discussions , but that's a bit too much to ask for 😂
Anyways, I'm glad you could connect to people who are so very different from you. I have a friend who is strongly opinated and we often dont see eye to eye on things, which isn't an obstacle for us to be besties 🙌🏻
I love different opinions and I love discussing them, about books or anything else. I feel like there's always something you can take away from it. Sometimes something personal of yours makes you relate to this or that book in a way no one else would understand. I read people's opinions here all the time, some people hate books I loved (and vice versa) and it's fine. They won't change my opinion, though, because I have th3 right to have one. The other day I had people sending me messages asking me if I got paid to give a certain book 5 stars, and I was like WTF? Can't you accept the fact that someone else has a different opinion than yours?
Leticia, yes I remember. Honestly these people are clowns 🤡😂 Why should someone try to convince a person who liked/disliked a book that it is a gem/garbage.. the impressions always depend on someone's individual perspective/personal tastes. I constantly see 1 star reviews for books i absolutely loved and I either ignore them or laugh at how ridiculous people make them sound. But those reviews don't make me change my perception either. Also I don't feel like someone shitted on my bday cake. I don't expect to love books my friends adored because we have different brains and vice versa. 🤡And I agree, sometimes discussions born out of differences shed interesting new light on some aspects of the topic discussed. That's what I love about them.
You know once I reviewed a book in a favourable light and the person who read it because of my review wrote later that she "was promised" *quote from my review* but received a pile of garbage instead 😂🤡 GR is a truly amazing place.
⚔Irunía⚔ wrote: "Leticia, yes I remember. Honestly these people are clowns 🤡😂 Why should someone try to convince a person who liked/disliked a book that it is a gem/garbage.. the impressions always depend on someon..."LOOOL OMG that's why my profile clearly states my opinions are my own. Like it, don't like it, whatever, but please respect it. Jeez, this place is hilarious sometimes 😂
LOL. It gives me life how the discussion spun completely out of your control Irunia🤣🤣Thanks for always sharing your thoughts with us, I always grab a 🍿😜
Leticia, it doesn't matter what your profile says, one may know how to read but not how to understand. 😂😂 I find it HILARIOUS the way we feel it's necessary to state the obvious. I giggle internally every time someone gives a warning in their review that they liked a book but they don't condone rape/murder etc. 🤡🤡 I know exactly why they do this



That's true for both groups, finding themselves on the extreme points of one section.
That's what I see happening in my inner circle (on a regular basis, for many years). And I think on the worldwide scale, our time is the perfect example of everything I've said above. That's why in deep shit we are right now. ✌🏻 And worse is to come. 😌
Tolerance??? Empty word tossed around and having no real substance.
I digress.